59 replies to this topic

[garthsj]

I am giving everyone a "heads-up" to listen to this album over the weekend, so that we can start deliberating in earnest on Sunday.

Forgive me for selecting such an obvious album, but I am surprised that one of the seminal contributions to the development of modern jazz has not been discussed before. This is an album that should be in every collection, so I am hoping that we will have a lively discussion of its strengths and weaknesses, and NOT all just a paean to this icon. I will post some comments on the album made by major jazz critics, such as André Hodeir. I encourage others to find critical reviews of this album when it was first released, remembering that while these tracks were recorded in 1949 and 1950, it was only released in 1954 as a 10" album as part of the "Classics in Jazz" series on Capitol, after the initial release as a series of 78rpm singles. It was only in 1957 that the 12" album appeared, with three additional tracks, and was titled "The Birth Of The Cool" ...

So ... let the games begin ....

[Jazz Kat]

Love it. Nice melodies. Nice players. Nice album!

[Soulstation1]

i haven't listened to this cd in over 3 years

ss1

[mikeweil]

And please don't forget the live tracks included on the nest-to-last CD release of that album (unfortunately they did not add the live tracks to the RVG remaster, which sounds great). They throw a very interesting light on this music. (And are not that cool art all!)

Edited by mikeweil, 21 March 2005 - 06:30 PM.

[Chuck Nessa]

Somehow I missed this AOW post 'til now. It is an amazing group of recordings.

Do we want to discuss the black/white conflicts implicit in this date? It is a huge question with resonance continuing today.

[Jazz Kat]

i haven't listened to this cd in over 3 years

ss1

Neither have I, but because I dont own it. I have borrowed it a long time ago, and remember it was a damned good record.

[Larry Kart]

My first impression of the album way back when (c. 1955, for me, I think), and one of the most startling moments in my life as a listener, was the opening phrase of Gil Evans' arrangement of "Boplicity," in particular the magical rhythmic taffy pull that places the utterly unexpected kind of weight it does on each of the first four notes. I suppose you could say it was '30s Lester Young thinking made orchestral, but that it was orchestral somehow made it different --- so beautiful and (in my experience over the years) never less than strange; I felt that first time as though I were stepping into an alternate universe and still feel that way now. Maybe, the "coolest" piece on the album, along with "Moon Dreams," it exemplifies one of the key aspects of the cool sensibility at its most seductive and (it could be argued) dangerous -- the belief that just the right degree and sort of detachment from the world could bring peace, relief, and enlightenment. (Interesting, BTW, to compare the way the original band plays that passage on "Boplicity" to the way Mulligan's crew plays it on that GRP album of the "Birth of the Cool" charts -- as I recall, that eerie step-slide glide feel is missing on the GRP performance, though perhaps, as with much else on the GRP album that feels different from the original, this was a matter of choice.)

[JSngry]

Still working on this one after all these years. Other than the Gil charts, I tend to respect it and appreciate it more than love it. But the love grows every year, if only slightly, so I keep listening.

Now as for the black/white thing mentioned by Chuck, that is indeed a major and meaty point for consideration.

[Chuck Nessa]

My great pleasures from this stuff are Konitz solos and Israel.

[Big Al]

Still working on this one after all these years. Other than the Gil charts, I tend to respect it and appreciate it more than love it. But the love grows every year, if only slightly, so I keep listening.

Yup!

[Larry Kart]

"Israel" probably is the most ambitious and successfully ambitous (everything works like gangbusters) piece on the album, but its muscularity, emotional weight, and reliance on line more than color makes it a bit oblique to most of the other pieces. In sensibility, it's not really a cool piece at all. Interesting, too, that Carisi's mid-1950s RCA recasting of "Israel" for a different instrumentation is at least as good -- a further sign that it was a much less color-dependent work than the other "Birth of the Cool" pieces.

[JSngry]

Well now, talk about ambitious, and I go to "Moon Dreams". The ending always stood out to/fascinated me, but while rummaging through my parent's old RCA box of the Glen Miller AAFB stuff a few years ago, I was shocked/delighted to find a version of "Moon Dreams", a vocal by Johnny Desmond (and a great one at that). Hearing that song as a "song" and then comparing it to Gil's reworking of it (it's in a lower key, for one thing, and the harmonies are, not surprisingly significantly more altered) was a real eye/ear-opener.

[Larry Kart]

Jim -- You are aware that, per "The Glenn Miller Story," "Moon Dreams" was written by Harry Morgan (he played Chummy McGregor).
I know what you mean about ambitous there, but Gil's "Moon Dreams," as far out and as pregant with meaning as it is at times, is still an etherealized dance band chart, while "Israel" (as Lenny Bruce might have put it) is an oil painting.
BTW, if you can, check out Meredith D'Ambrosio's recording of "Moon Dreams." She captures more of Gil's chart than you'd think would be possible.

[JSngry]

Jim -- You are aware that, per "The Glenn Miller Story," "Moon Dreams" was written by Harry Morgan (he played Chummy McGregor).

You mean the other way around, right? Or were you kidding? I'm procrastinating leaving for work and am in a transitional state of reality percepttion right now, and can't really tell for sure...

This wasn't "The Glenn Miller Story", btw this was the Miller Army Air Force Band. An pretty darn interesting outfit at times, if only at times...

But yeah, I knew that. Somewhere here (I think it's here), there's a thread I started (and got some great info from) about the origins of "Moon Beams", including the positing the possibility that Gil might have heard this seeminigly obscure sonf while in tha Army, on a Miller AAFB broadcast. Seems that Margaret Whiting had recorded it as well, iirc.

Still the highlight of the collection for me, that and "Godchild", but like I said, the others are slowly but surely growing on me. Why it's taking so long, I'll probably have to wait until later to post about, becuase right now, I gotta run.

[Free For All]

Just for quick review, the arrangers:

Gil Evans (Boplicity, Moon Dreams, Theme)
Gerry Mulligan (Jeru, Godchild, Deception, Venus De Milo, Rocker, Darn That Dream)
John Lewis (Budo, Move, Rouge, S'il Vous Plait, Why Do I Love You)
John Carisi (Israel)

I think it's interesting that people tend to think of this as mostly a Gil project (as far as the writing) when in fact he only arranged three of the tunes. I do think it was a Gil project inasmuch as these guys were constantly hanging out at Gil's place talking about the music, the instrumentation possibilities etc. with Gil assuming his svengali role (I would have loved to have been at some of those hangs!). IMHO the idea to use french horn and tuba very likely came at least in part from the time he spent in Thornhill's band and the sounds he was hearing there. I think anyone who enjoys BOTC should follow up by listening to Gil's Thornhill charts, especially Yardbird Suite, Anthropology and Donna Lee. It's amazing the degree to which he assimilated and personalized (Gil-ified) the bebop style when these tunes hadn't been around all that long. We've had decades to analyze these tunes and IMHO no one since has done any arrangements of those three Bird tunes that hold a candle to Gil's versions.

And Carisi's chart on Israel is a classic! I never tire of listening to it and use it as a model of contrapuntal writing for my arranging classes. Larry, you describe that piece perfectly!

Are there full scores available for all the BOTC charts?? I know there are transcriptions of the individual pieces available, but has anyone combined them into a book yet?

[Free For All]

Do we want to discuss the black/white conflicts implicit in this date?  It is a huge question with resonance continuing today.

I'm interested in what you (and others) have to say about this, Chuck....

[Larry Kart]

Yes, I'm kidding. Chummy McGregor wrote "Moon Dreams," Harry Morgan played him in the movie.
Now that I'm thinking of it, in the Artie Shaw biopic I'm imagining, who should we cast as Dodo Marmarosa? I think the scene where Dodo pushes a grand piano off a balcony to see what kind of sound it makes when it lands would be a natural. But, please, not Sean Penn.

[Chuck Nessa]

Now that I'm thinking of it, in the Artie Shaw biopic I'm imagining, who should we cast as Dodo Marmarosa? I think the scene where Dodo pushes a grand piano off a balcony to see what kind of sound it makes when it lands would be a natural. But, please, not Sean Penn.

John Turturro!

[Larry Kart]

I knew I could count on the collective and individual genius of Organissimo.

[Free For All]

a natural.

My guess would have been Ab.

[AllenLowe]

actually I was thinking Aric could play Dodo -

[AllenLowe]

but seriously - I'm glad Carisi came up here- somewhere I have a trasncribed interview with him (I got to know him a little bit in the 1980s) - interesting guy, great writer/arranger, forward looking and very opinionated - hated all post-'60-s free jazz - I would recommended Angor Wat as well - (unsure of spelling) -

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Absolutely there is a book of all the scores - it's one of the masterpieces that every musician should have. Jeff Sultanof prepared it using the original parts (long thought to be lost). It even includes stuff that was in the band's repertoire but was never recorded.

http://www.halleonar...nd=E&catcode=06

Mike

[garthsj]

Do we want to discuss the black/white conflicts implicit in this date?  It is a huge question with resonance continuing today.

I'm interested in what you (and others) have to say about this, Chuck....

YES PLEASE, Chuck... do initiate a discussion of this aspect of these recordings ....

Also, would some of you like to comment on the various reissues/remakes of this album ... including the version with Phil Woods doing the Konitz parts (which I think illustrates in a very substantial way just how important Konitz's role was in the making of the original recordings).

Finally, I think that we need an "Ashley Kahninization" of this whole enterprise ... not necessarily in that style, but a social/cultural history of the project considering its importance in the history of modern jazz. As an historian I wish that I was equipped musically to undertake that ... but .... Mike Fitzgerald ... What are the chances of bringing this off as a project, considering that most of the key players are no longer with us?

Edited by garthsj, 22 March 2005 - 12:28 PM.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

There's been quite a bit written about this and fortunately, I think the major figures did speak on the subject at one time or another. It would be just a matter of compiling this existing stuff into a "Birth Of The Cool Reader".

The right person for this would be Jeff Sultanof. He knows more about the stuff than anyone I know of. I believe he's putting an article together for the Annual Review of Jazz Studies, but it's primarily on what he did to publish the scores - but it will be a must-read, and I'm sure there will be some background history of the group and the tunes.

Mike

[AllenLowe]

one interesting (trivia) fact about the Birth of the Cool is that, though recorded in mono, there was a good deal of separation between the drums and the rest of the band - they put Max in a separate booth (on, as far as I know, at least one of the Capitol sessions) -

[Free For All]

Absolutely there is a book of all the scores - it's one of the masterpieces that every musician should have. Jeff Sultanof prepared it using the original parts (long thought to be lost). It even includes stuff that was in the band's repertoire but was never recorded.

http://www.halleonar...nd=E&catcode=06

Mike

Thanks Mike- I'm all over this! $16 and change at Amazon.

[Larry Kart]

Listening this afternoon, I was struck anew by how fine almost all of Miles' solos are -- not only remarkably hip harmonically (some of those note choices maybe no one else alive then could have/would have made) but also in terms of long-lined melodic thinking. Also, in terms of how the band phrases, he is the leader -- assuming the recording balance is relatively close to what they was happening in the studio. Mulligan certainly deserves his props, "Godchild" in particular. And I have to listen again, real hard, to the scoring of the main motif of "Rocker" -- seems to me (though even on the RVG remaster it's hard to be sure) that what Konitz and Mulligan are doing around/behind Miles' lead is very far from simple. A partial listen to Mulligan's GRP remake album makes me wonder whether they had the original scores in every case; I not only hear changes in scoring, which is legit if they were made because Gerry heard things differently in 1992, but also what seem to be simplifications or just transcribers' guesses. Speaking of Gerry, he was not a very good player I think at the time of the original sessions; the only solo passage from him that seems effective to me is his brief bit on "Moon Dreams." By 1992, he deservedly takes a lion's share of the solo space, though that does alter the formal balance of most of the pieces. Wallace Roney -- I'd say "nice try." The difference in the rhythm section work from 1992 to 1950 -- well, Max deserves the highest praise. And from what I can tell, Al Haig on the first date had much more to offer this band than John Lewis did -- in '50 or '92. Haig is especially alert and creative behind Miles. Phil Woods in '92 -- I winced at the thought but have to admit that he's not as gross here as I feared he would be. On the other hand, he does contribute to the frequently unhomogeneous sound of the '92 ensemble, though multitrack recording plus Mulligan's desires may have played a role in this too.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

No, the GRP recording used transcriptions. The original parts had not been discovered at that point. Ditto for the Miles at Montreux performance.

Mike

[AllenLowe]

1) I remember a story that Konitz told when he did the Birth of the Cool for a Smithsonian concert - he had called Miles a few times, who kept putting him off, so finally gave up and had the arrangements transcribed - after the concert Miles called Konitz and said: "Why didn't you just ask me? I have all those arrangements in my basement."
2) Interesting that Larry should point out what he did about Haig - Haig was the one who said to me he hadn't ever really listened to the sessions, but couldn't imagine they were any good because the conditions were so uncomfortable, and Max was away in a booth - I told him he should listen again, though I don't know if he ever did - at any rate, Larry is touching on something here which I've thought about a lot - (at least I think he is) - which is that there are real problems with John Lewis's piano playing, in a general sense (sorry Larry if I'm misrepresenting you) -

Edited by AllenLowe, 23 March 2005 - 02:01 PM.