[Popper Lou]

I always wondered what is different between the two. Anyone have the answer?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Cornet is part of a family of conical bore instruments - with tuba and euphonium. Trumpet is part of a family of cylindrical bore instruments - with trombone and baritone horn. Both cornet and trumpet are the same length when uncoiled, so they have identical ranges. The bore difference makes the trumpet brighter. Mouthpiece factors can also affect things - traditional cornet mouthpiece is deep V-cup, while trumpet is usually shallower U-cup. Cornet has a history in military bands while trumpet goes back to orchestral guilds. There are books on this whole history subject.

Mike

[jazzmessenger]

How about flugelhorn? ;) I can kind of tell the difference by looking at these instruments, but I am never sure...

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Flugelhorn is even more conical than cornet. Still same length and same range.

Mike

[Dr. Rat]

Conical means the walls if the pipe are getting bigger as you move away from the mouthpiece. Tubular means they are remaining the same.

Think I read somewhere that a trumpet is 2/3s tubular (for 2/3 pf it's length, the walls of the pipe keep the same diameter, then over the last 1/3 the pipe opens out to its terminal diameter which comes just before the bell (which I think is counted separately). This last third being the conical part

Cornet is 1/3 tubular and 2/3 conical, so it opens up over a longer span of pipe. So the cornet sound is thought of as somewhat less forceful and more "open" than a trumpet.

A flugelhorn is conical the whole way from the mouthpiece to the bell, with the walls of the pipe gradually expanding the whole way, and therefore you get the softer sometimes kinda blowsy sound of the flugelhorn.

The length of the tube in all three cases being identical for horns in the same key.


--eric

[frank m]

If you want to hear the difference in tonal quality listen to Warren Vache who plays a cornet and someone like Irwin Stokes or Nicholas Payton who play trumpet. Ii can only describe it verbally as the cornet having a less bright, softer sound than trumpet.

[slide_advantage_redoux]

jazzmessenger, on Mar 21 2005, 10:37 PM, said:

How about flugelhorn? ;)  I can kind of tell the difference by looking at these instruments, but I am never sure...

And the flugel got its name in Germany. Basically it translates to "wing horn" (As in Flughafen = airport).

In traditional marching bands in Germany, they were positioned on the wings of the unit. (the edge I assume)

[sidewinder]

There's also the English 'brass band' variant of the cornet, which is somewhat shorter than the US variety. The US cornet also sounds a bit more 'fluegely' to my ears...

[Michael Fitzgerald]

All B-flat cornets are the same length when uncoiled. Any variation in how they are coiled will result in *appearing* shorter - but they aren't really. I believe what is referred to above is the "shepherd's crook" variation. Again, range is exactly the same.

Let's not get into E-flat cornets, etc. Instruments in different keys ARE different lengths.

Mike

[JohnS]

What about four valve instruments? The cover of Ted Curson's "Plenty Of Horn" shows him playing what I take to be a pocket trumpet with four valves. I can also remember Freddie Hubbard playing at Ronnie Scotts with an instrument with keys at the side (again I think this was a four valve instrument.)

This post has been edited by JohnS: 22 March 2005 - 03:11 PM

[sidewinder]

Michael Fitzgerald, on Mar 22 2005, 03:04 PM, said:

All B-flat cornets are the same length when uncoiled. Any variation in how they are coiled will result in *appearing* shorter - but they aren't really. I believe what is referred to above is the "shepherd's crook" variation. Again, range is exactly the same.

Let's not get into E-flat cornets, etc. Instruments in different keys ARE different lengths.

Mike

Yes, its the coiling arrangement that makes the US instrument appear slightly longer. The front tubing arrangement on the English cornet does indeed resemble a 'shepherd's crook'.

This post has been edited by sidewinder: 22 March 2005 - 03:17 PM

[Jazz Kat]

cornet- short
trumpet- long
flugelhorn- BIG

hope that helps :P

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Curson is shown with not a pocket trumpet (which is the same length as a trumpet, cornet, or flugelhorn but coiled very differently) but rather a piccolo trumpet. The piccolo trumpet (there are several different keys) is MUCH shorter in length than the standard issue trumpet. The fourth valve adds tubing, allowing for lower notes and for better intonation in certain situations.

I can't think of what Hubbard ever played that had four valves - flugelhorn would be my only thought, though I've always seen him with the much more common three-valve model. Long shot would be a rotary valve flugelhorn like the ones that Jimmy Owens, Wilbur Harden, and Claudio Roditi have played. These make it look like the player is holding the instrument sideways when playing.

Other four valves instances: flugelhorn, euphonium, baritone horn, tuba (sometimes 5 even) - and the exceedingly rare quarter-tone trumpets that Don Ellis used. The fourth valve on the double (french) horn is quite different, effectively switching between two different instruments, typically the F horn and the higher B-flat horn.

No, the short, long, BIG thing doesn't help because it isn't always true. I could show you trumpets that look like cornets, flugelhorns that look like cornets, and cornets that look like trumpets.

Mike

[Rooster_Ties]

Michael Fitzgerald, on Mar 22 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

...a pocket trumpet (which is the same length as a trumpet, cornet, or flugelhorn but coiled very differently)...

Would love to hear more about the pocket trumpet.

I don't have any specific questions (don't know enough to know what to ask), other than I'm surprised to learn that the length of the tubing is the same as a standard trumpet, etc... My surprise stems not so much from the relative size of the instruments, but rather from the wildly (to my ears) different sound that pockets seem to make, vs. standard trumpets.

Or are my ears on crooked again?? ^_^

Edit: I always thought pocket trumpets were pitched higher than standard trumpets. (Or maybe they are?? - reguardless of having the same length of tubing?? :huh: ) Like I said, I don't know all that much about the mechanics of brass instruments.

This post has been edited by Rooster_Ties: 22 March 2005 - 04:55 PM

[Michael Fitzgerald]

More than you wanted to know:

http://www.dallasmus...20trumpets.html

Regarding sound differences - who have you ever heard play both? I suspect the difference is due to the player not the instrument.

Mike

This post has been edited by Michael Fitzgerald: 22 March 2005 - 05:03 PM

[jazzmessenger]

How come no one has asked about "flumpet" (sp?) Art Farmer played?

[Rooster_Ties]

Michael Fitzgerald, on Mar 22 2005, 04:02 PM, said:

Regarding sound differences - who have you ever heard play both? I suspect the difference is due to the player not the instrument.

Thanks for that link. The majority of the Pocket Trumpet I've heard over the years has been from Don Cherry, so the player probably is the biggest variable.

In particular, I'm thinking of Cherry on mutet pocket trumpet (especially during the last 10 years of his life). Ain't nothin' like I never heard on no regular trumpet, that's for sure. Probably the player, more than the horn. (Hell, maybe I've even heard some other guys on pocket trumpet, and didn't even realize what it was I was listening to. ^_^ )

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Remember, in the 1960s Cherry recorded on "regular" cornet too - with Rollins and on his Blue Note albums, at least.

The flumpet is a hybrid between flugelhorn and trumpet made only by Dave Monette. I've never played one (I'll never afford a Monette - $6500 for a used flumpet) and can't say how exactly it differs from a cornet, but from the description, it seems to lean more towards the flugelhorn.

Mike

[jazzmessenger]

This is a very interesting thread.

Mike,
Thanks for answering my questions.

[Jazz Kat]

Rooster_Ties, on Mar 22 2005, 04:54 PM, said:

Michael Fitzgerald, on Mar 22 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

...a pocket trumpet (which is the same length as a trumpet, cornet, or flugelhorn but coiled very differently)...

Would love to hear more about the pocket trumpet.

I don't have any specific questions (don't know enough to know what to ask), other than I'm surprised to learn that the length of the tubing is the same as a standard trumpet, etc... My surprise stems not so much from the relative size of the instruments, but rather from the wildly (to my ears) different sound that pockets seem to make, vs. standard trumpets.

Or are my ears on crooked again?? ^_^

Edit: I always thought pocket trumpets were pitched higher than standard trumpets. (Or maybe they are?? - reguardless of having the same length of tubing?? :huh: ) Like I said, I don't know all that much about the mechanics of brass instruments.

I have a pocket trumpet. The sound is basically the same, you just feel really wacky playing it. When you go back to a normal trumpet, it seems really really long, and I mean long, from the position at your lips.

[jazzmessenger]

On the similar topic, is Sean Jones playing a flugelhorn in this photo? Or, is that something else?

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ichikawa/sean_jones.jpg

[sidewinder]

Looks like a flugelhorn..

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Yep

[jazzmessenger]

Thanks!

[Jazz Kat]

jazzmessenger, on Mar 23 2005, 07:39 AM, said:

On the similar topic, is Sean Jones playing a flugelhorn in this photo? Or, is that something else?

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ichikawa/sean_jones.jpg

I dont know if its just me, but I have seen a lot of pictures with flugelhorn players and some of them look at different sizes. Do they come in sizes?

[JohnS]

My thanks too Mike.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Any variation in flugelhorn appearance is due to the wrap design. They are all the same length uncoiled. The only significant difference would be 3-valve vs. 4-valve.

There used to be a great site called www.flugelhorns.com that had hundreds of pictures and descriptions. Alas, no longer.

Mike

[Dr. Rat]

Michael Fitzgerald, on Mar 23 2005, 10:54 AM, said:

Any variation in flugelhorn appearance is due to the wrap design. They are all the same length uncoiled. The only significant difference would be 3-valve vs. 4-valve.

There used to be a great site called www.flugelhorns.com that had hundreds of pictures and descriptions. Alas, no longer.

Mike

There is no longer any "no longer" on the Internet. Almost, anyhow.

Archived fluglehorn page

--eric

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I tried that already before I posted - you can get to certain things, but I can't seem to make the site work as designed. Seems to have something to do with the frames setup.

Mike

[Free For All]

Woody Shaw played cornet frequently- check out the photos at his website.