[AllenLowe]

I'm putting this in the artist's area, though I know that some might argue that it's for audio - at any rate, thanks to Big Al, who sent me his copy, I was able to work on the much argued-about Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall CD, with Phil Schaap's purist approach to restoration. I've done a bit of work on it tonight, and even I'm surprised at how much better it sounds - interestingly enough, not only does CEDAR really remove a lot of the noise wihohut diminishing the music, I found that Phil did a very bad job at one crucial step of the re-mastering process - EQ. A major reason this CD sounds so medicre is that it's so poorly EQ'd - I boosted the bass about 6 DB, added some midrange, and voila - got the rhythm section back, heard more Benny, more orchestra. I'm putting together a CDR with three cuts: cut 1 is the original, cut two is with one step of noise reduction (de-clicking/crackling, some de-hiss) and cut 3 is with a bit more hiss reduction added -I tend to be very conservative in these things. There is nothing that will eliminate all hiss, and there is some nice ambient sound in those higher frequencies. But I figured everyone can make their own judgement. I'm happy to mail a CDR to anyone interested - email me at alowe@maine.rr.com and I'll put one in the mail -

This post has been edited by AllenLowe: 27 March 2005 - 07:36 PM

[Chuck Nessa]

I'd be ready to hear a copy - I think the Schaap version is a crime. Have you heard what our Andoran "friends" have done?

[Christiern]

Schaap's work was inexcusable, IMO. I would love to hear what you have done, Allen. Tell me where to send a blank.

[AllenLowe]

don't worry, I'll supply the blank - just email me your address at alowe@maine.rr.com and I'll get one out this week - Chuck - I'll send you one this week - I haven't heard the re-do - does it sound like they worked from Schaap's original?

This post has been edited by AllenLowe: 27 March 2005 - 08:31 PM

[Chuck Nessa]

AllenLowe, on Mar 27 2005, 08:30 PM, said:

Chuck - I'll send you one this week - I haven't heard the re-do - does it sound like they worked from Schaap's original?

They claim otherwise, but....................

[ejp626]

It's very rare that the first CD incarnation of a Columbia album sounds better than the re-issue, but that is definitely the case here. I'm very glad I hung onto my mid-1980s issue of Goodman at Carnegie Hall, since the Schapp is just unlistenable for the most part.

[Big Al]

AllenLowe, on Mar 27 2005, 06:34 PM, said:

I'm putting this in the artist's area, though I know that some might argue that it's for audio - at any rate, thanks to Big Al, who sent me his copy, I was able to work on the much argued-about Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall CD, with Phil Schaap's purist approach to restoration. I've done a bit of work on it tonight, and even I'm surprised at how much better it sounds - interestingly enough, not only does CEDAR really remove a lot of the noise wihohut diminishing the music, I found that Phil did a very bad job at one crucial step of the re-mastering process - EQ. A major reason this CD sounds so medicre is that it's so poorly EQ'd - I boosted the bass about 6 DB, added some midrange, and voila - got the rhythm section back, heard more Benny, more orchestra. I'm putting together a CDR with three cuts: cut 1 is the original, cut two is with one step of noise reduction (de-clicking/crackling, some de-hiss) and cut 3 is with a bit more hiss reduction added -I tend to be very conservative in these things. There is nothing that will eliminate all hiss, and there is some nice ambient sound in those higher frequencies. But I figured everyone can make their own judgement. I'm happy to mail a CDR to anyone interested - email me at alowe@maine.rr.com and I'll put one in the mail -

:o So THAT'S where I put that thing! :lol:

Can't wait to hear the results, Allen. BTW, which track did you use?

[EKE BBB]

Chuck Nessa, on Mar 28 2005, 01:47 AM, said:

Have you heard what our Andoran "friends" have done?

Don´t believe they´re from Andorra, Chuck. ;)
Taxes, that is.

In the Tomajazz Forums now we´re calling them "The emporium".

[BERIGAN]

ejp626, on Mar 27 2005, 11:03 PM, said:

It's very rare that the first CD incarnation of a Columbia album sounds better than the re-issue, but that is definitely the case here. I'm very glad I hung onto my mid-1980s issue of Goodman at Carnegie Hall, since the Schapp is just unlistenable for the most part.

Exactly. I'm glad I held onto the original as well...

[Harold_Z]

This is a good example of why a lot of this is highly subjective. I thought the late 80s reissue was terrible and a casebook example of digital scrubbing.

[Jazzmoose]

Well, I tried to like the most recent reissue, as I've had it drilled in that I was "supposed" to prefer such things, but I gave up on trying to listen to it.

[AllenLowe]

I used the first cut - Don't Be that Way - I will add that one good thing about things being issued the way Schaap issued this is that no restoration is better than BAD restoration - with digital work, once somthing is gone it's gone - you cannot rid it of digital distortion, you cannot being back highs that have been digitally removed - so in this way, at the very least, Schaap has left us a good archival copy of the concert - I'm thinking about this because I've been listening to some REALLY bad work done by Proper - obvious distortion, that underwater gargling effect from bad hiss-reduction - this is MUCH worse than anything Phil has done -

[jazzbo]

I prefer the most recent version to the first cd version as well, and find it listenable.

Such great music!

[garthsj]

How will this compare with the reissue done by Dave Bennett for Avid Records? This reissue is very listenable, especially in comparison to the Schaap version ...

[Brad]

Jazzmoose, on Mar 28 2005, 09:44 AM, said:

Well, I tried to like the most recent reissue, as I've had it drilled in that I was "supposed" to prefer such things, but I gave up on trying to listen to it.

Ditto. I'd like to hear the Allen-ized version.

[AllenLowe]

I think it sounds better and, honestly, you'd be surprised at how relatively little effort it took to improve this thing - CEDAR is a powerful tool when used for good and not for evil - I'm quite shocked that Sony let it be released the way it did -

[Christiern]

To Sony's credit, they also released Phil Schaap. :g

[AllenLowe]

well, as that Bob Dylan song says...

[Dave James]

I rememeber picking this one up when it was first released and really looking forward to hearing it in all its restored aural glory. I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I finally listened to it. I never had the original for A/B purposes, but I know bad sound when I hear it and this was bad sound. I've always been flabbergasted that Sony considered Shaapp's restoration to be releasable.

Allen - I'd like to take advantage of your more than generous offer, but at the same time, I don't want to take advantage of you. Is there some way (PayPal account maybe) that those of us who would like to have a copy of this on CDR could compensate you for your efforts?

Up over and out.

This post has been edited by Dave James: 28 March 2005 - 01:04 PM

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Hmm - which Dylan tune?

"I Don't Believe You"?

"I Forgot More Than You'll Ever Know"?

"Ye Shall Be Changed"?

"Too Much Of Nothing"?

"I'd Hate To Be You On That Dreadful Day"?

"Idiot Wind"?

"Million Dollar Bash"?

"Neighborhood Bully"?

"Nothing Was Delivered"?

"Talking Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert Massacre Blues"?

Mike

This post has been edited by Michael Fitzgerald: 28 March 2005 - 01:04 PM

[medjuck]

I can supply a cdr of the Defintive version if one want to do an a/b with your version Allen.
(I don't feel guilty about copying what's basically a bootleg.)

[Dave James]

"Ain't no use to sit and wonder why, babe."

Up over and out.

[AllenLowe]

if anyone wants to paypal me about $2 that'll cover CDR, postage, and packing - (my paypal address is ammusic@maine.rr.com) - actually, Mike, I was thinking of I Shall Be Released - though Idiot Wind probably makes the most sense - or the film he made, Don't Look, Schaap -

This post has been edited by AllenLowe: 28 March 2005 - 01:11 PM

[Z-Man]

Michael Fitzgerald, on Mar 28 2005, 01:03 PM, said:

"Talking Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert Massacre Blues"?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[AllenLowe]

just to let everybody know that the sample CDRs should be going out tomorrow - if you requested one but don't get it by the end of the week, please let me know -

[Christiern]

Thanks, Allen.

[clinthopson]

My very first lp was the Cartnegie Hall concert. I wore it out.

I then bought a later lp version which completely changed the order of the show. It plugged in the small group number all over the place rether than leaving them in the original order.

I have delayed getting a new cd of the concert because I've heard mixed reports.

What would you all recommend?

[Christiern]

Clint, did you perchance give your worn-out discs to Phil Schaap before Columbia dumped him? :unsure:

[AllenLowe]

well, I only did one cut - one thing we should remember, and give Schaap credit for, is that the initial transfers were very good - this is vital, because without that even the best restoration work is limited - I tend to be conservative on these things, but not as conservative as Schaap - I always leave some surface noise, as it is impossible to eliminate without losing the upper frequencies and presence and space - and you would be surprised how much recorded info there is, even on very old recordings -

[clinthopson]

Christiern, on Apr 4 2005, 10:35 AM, said:

Clint, did you perchance give your worn-out discs to Phil Schaap before Columbia dumped him? :unsure:

I wondered what happened to those discs. :rolleyes: