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Billie & Louis / Do you know what it means...


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#1 Jim R

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:28 PM

I'm looking for a little help from someone who might have covered this ground before. We recently had a visit from my niece, who is a fan of Billie Holiday. She mentioned to me that she once had an audio recording of Billie and Louis singing together on DYKWIMTMNO, but that it had gotten lost, and she's been unable to find another copy. She thought hers was released by an Italian label, and I believe she said it was a studio (not live) recording (I'm not sure about that).

I tried some searches online, and found some info on a couple of sites, but I'm having trouble sorting it all out. Here's the data I found:

First, from http://www.socc.ie/~...ie/versions.htm:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO MISS NEW ORLEANS? by Eddie DeLange / Loise Alter
Date / Location / Personnel / Label-matrix #
11/09/46 1 Hal Roach Studios, Culver City, LA Charlie Beal (p)
TMX27 ??
11/09/46 2 Hal Roach Studios, Culver City, LA Louis Armstrong (t/v), Barney Bigard (cl), Kid Ory (tb), Charlie Beal (p), Bud Scott (g), Red Callender (b), Zutty Singleton (d)
TMS ??
08/10/46 1 Hal Roach Studios, Culver City, LA Louis Armstrong (t/v), Barney Bigard (cl), Kid Ory (tb), Charlie Beal (p), Bud Scott (g), Red Callender (b), Zutty Singleton (d)

08/02/47 1 Carnegie Hall, NY Louis Armstrong (t/v), Bobby Tucker (p), Elmer Warner (g), Arvell Shaw (b), Sid Catlett (d)
JB359

=====

Next, from http://www.billieholiday.be/:

Date Type Time Matrix Label Location Band/Occasion
11-sep-46 FILM 2'07'' - Kino Video (DVD), BHD-CD2 Los Angeles, Culver City, Hal Roach Studios New Orleans Film Pre-Production Recordings
11-sep-46 FILM 2'13'' TMX27 JUTB 3036 / GoJ GOJ1025 / LDBIt LDB03 (box LDB01/23) Los Angeles, Culver City, Hal Roach Studios New Orleans Film Pre-Production Recordings
11-sep-46 FILM 1'51'' TMX42 JUTB 3036 / GoJ GOJ1025 / LDBIt LDB03 (box LDB01/23) Los Angeles, Culver City, Hal Roach Studios Louis Armstrong and his Band
30-sep-46 FILM 3'32'' - Kino Video (DVD), BHD-CD2 Los Angeles, Culver City, Hal Roach Studios Louis Armstrong and his Band
30-sep-46 FILM 1'52'' TMX42 SagaE ERO8014 / MusiF 30CV1266 Los Angeles, Culver City, Hal Roach Studios Louis Armstrong and his Band
08-feb-47 LR 4'19'' - JUTB 3036 / V-Disc 760 New York City, Louis Armstrong All-Stars Carnegie Hall Concert Louis Armstrong and his Orchestra

=====

As you can see, the dates conflict a bit. Some of this has been released on videos, but I'm more interested in figuring out how many versions there were with both Billie and Louis singing together, and what label(s) have released it on CD. Any help would be appreciated.

Does anybody have this CD?: http://www.musicweb-...rmstrong40s.htm

Edited by Jim R, 14 June 2005 - 12:32 PM.


#2 ghost of miles

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:34 PM

I think I have it, but it's somewhere at home... will have to check later tonight. Is it on the Billie Holiday V-disc, or is that just her singing it?

#3 jazzbo

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:35 PM

I have a copy of the Spanish cd of the soundtrack version of the "New Orleans" film (in fact, I have one for sale, as I also have this on the Jazz Crusade label) that includes a version of this, AND I also have, I believe, a different version on a Classics disc. I haven't played the latter in years and I'm not positive that they are not the same, but I believe the Classics includes the Carnegie Hall version with Pops.

Edited by jazzbo, 14 June 2005 - 12:39 PM.


#4 jazzbo

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:43 PM

http://www.worldsrec...saved=songstart

http://www.worldsrec...saved=songstart

Links to two cds that contain the Carnegie Hall version.

#5 Jeffro

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 05:26 PM

Yep--Jazzbo's right, I'm pretty sure.. Check out the soundtrack to the film "New Orleans." Clips at http://www.amazon.co...=music&n=507846 . In fact, you can buy a poster from the movie that shows Satchmo and Billie performing together.

#6 EKE BBB

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 05:36 PM

Here´s the discographical information for the "New Orleans" film (from Lord):

Louis Armstrong & Billie Holiday
[A3162.1620-4] Louis Armstrong
New Orleans: (feature film): Louis Armstrong and his Band:

Louis Armstrong (tp,vcl) Kid Ory (tb) Barney Bigard (cl) Charlie Beal (p) Bud Scott (g,vcl) Red Callender (b) Zutty Singleton (d) Billie Holiday (vcl) unidentified studio musicians added (1), Choir (vcl) added (2) Meade Lux Lewis (p-3) Arthur Schutt (p-4)
Hollywood, CA, from September 11 to October, 1946
TMX1-3 Flee as a bird (1) Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD]
TMX3A-5 When the saints go marching in (1) - -
TMX7-3 West End blues - -
TMX30A-1 #1 Mahogany hall stomp (tp, p-4 only) (unissued)
TMX30A-1 #2 Mahogany hall stomp (tp, p-4 only) -
TMX30A-1 #3 Mahohany hall stomp (tp, p-4 only) -
TMX30A-1 #4 Mahogany hall stomp (tp, p-4 only) -
TMX30B-1 Brahm's lullaby (tp, p-4 only) -
TMX30B-2 Brahm's lullaby (tp, p-4 only) Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD]
TMX33-3 Tiger rag - -
TMX42S63/4 Where the blues were born in New Orleans (la vcl) - - ,
Drumface ESC101
TMX53-G1-3 Buddy Bolden blues (bb out, la vcl only) Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD]
TMX53-G1-4 Buddy Bolden blues (bb out, la vcl only) - -
TMX53 Basin St blues blues (la vcl) - -
TMX53-G2-1 Raymond street blues (tp,p,b only) (unissued)
TXM53-G2-2 Raymond street blues (tp,p,b only) -
TMX53-G2-3 Raymond street blues (tp,p,b only) Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD]
TMX60 Hold everything (cl,p,g only) (unissued)
TMX62-4 Milenberg joys Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD]
TMX84 Farewell to Storyville (bh vcl, 2) (pre-recording) - -
TMX84 Farewell to Storyville (bh vcl, 2) (soundtrack) Saga (E)ERO8014, Saga PAN6918, TCB 1005, Kent
KST 600, Musidisc (F)CV1266, Festival (F)ALB144,
Sierra (E)FEDB-5018, Kings of Jazz (It)20002
TMX114-1 Honky tonk train blues (p-3 solo) Sounds Great SG8007
TMX119-1#2 Beale street stomp (tp, p out) Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD]
TMX ? Do you know what it means to miss N.O. (bh vcl) Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD], Saga (E)ERO8014, Saga PAN6918, TCB 1005, Kent KST 600, Musidisc (F)CV1266, Festival (F)ALB144
TMX ? Maryland, my Maryland Ambassador (Swd)CLA1915 [CD]

Note: for mx. TMX27 see Billie Holiday this date.
Note that TMX42S63/4 on GOJ1025 is missing first 1 minute but is complete on Jasmine (E)1025 issues on LP & CD, as is Drumface LP.
Ambassador (Swd)CLA1915 [CD] titled "Louis Armstrong - When You and I Were Young Maggie"; see flwg sessions September 18, 1948, May 13, 1950 and July 5, 1951 for rest of CD.
All titles issued on Giants of Jazz GOJ1025 also on Jazz Crusade JCCD3043 [CD] titled "Louis Armstrong - New Orleans"; see flwg sessions to October 17, 1946 and Meade Lux Lewis for rest of CD.





Louis Armstrong & Billie Holiday
[A3162.1640-4] Louis Armstrong
New Orleans: (sessions continued):

Louis Armstrong (tp,vcl) Robert Butler, Louis Gray, Andrew "Fats" Ford, Ed Mullens (tp) "Big Chief" Russell Moore, Waddet Williams, Nat Allen, James Whitney (tb) Don Hill, Amos Gordon (as) Joe Garland, John Sparrow (ts) Ernest Thompson (bar) Earl Mason (p) Elmer Warner (g) Arvell Shaw (b) Edmond McConney (d) Billie Holiday (vcl)
Hollywood, CA, from September 11 to October, 1946
TMX141-A4 Endie (la vcl) Giants of Jazz GOJ1025, Jasmine (E)CD1025 [CD]
TMX ? The blues are brewin' (bh vcl) (pre-recording) - -
TMX ? The blues are brewin' (bh vcl) (soundtrack) Saga (E)ERO8014, Saga PAN6918, TCB 1005,
Sierra (E)FEDB5018, Musidisc (F)CV1266

Note: the designations "pre-recording" and "soundtrack" in the titles of this and preceeding session indicate different sources for the same basic recording but the "pre-recording" is complete and without sound effects or dialogue or editing.
both titles on Giants of Jazz GOJ1025 also on Jazz Crusade JCCD3043 [CD]

Edited by EKE BBB, 14 June 2005 - 05:40 PM.


#7 EKE BBB

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 05:47 PM

The Carnegie Hall concert (from Lord):


Louis Armstrong & Billie Holiday
[A3162.1680-4] Louis Armstrong
Louis Armstrong and his Orchestra:

Louis Armstrong (tp,vcl) Ed Mullens, William "Chiefie" Scott, Thomas Grinder, Robert Butler (tp) "Big Chief" Russell Moore, James Whitney, Alton "Slim" Moore (tb) Arthur Dennis, Amos Gordon (as) Lucky Thompson, Joe Garland (ts) John Sparrow (bars) Earl Mason (p) Bobby Tucker (p-2) Elmer Warner (g) Arvell Shaw (b) Sid Catlett (d) Billie Holiday, Leslie Scott, Velma Middleton (vcl)
concert, "Carnegie Hall", New York, February 8, 1947

-When it's sleepy time down south Locomotive (F)ML21012
-Stompin' at the savoy Jazz Society (F)AA599, Locomotive (F)ML21012,
Family (It)SFR-DP640, Laserlight 15700 [CD],
Delta 11063 [CD]
-I can't give you anything but love (la vcl) Jazz Society (F)AA549, 67401, Alamac (F)180.053,
Joker (It)SM3233, Locomotive (F)ML21012, Family
(It)SFR-DP640, Quadrifoglio (It)VDS282, Europa
(G)111.534.0, Discophon (Sp)4.271, Music for
Pleasure (SA)MFP3518, Boulevard BD3001,
Laserlight 15700 [CD], Delta 11063 [CD],
Forlane UCD19002 [CD], Tring (Eu)VAR044 [CD]
-If I loved you (ls vcl) (**) Locomotive (F)ML21012
-Mop mop - , Family (It)SFR-DP640,
Europa (G)111.540.0
-Back o'town blues (la vcl) Locomotive (F)ML21012, Family (It)SFR-DP640,
Delta 11063 [CD]
-You won't be satisfied (la,vm vcl) Locomotive (F)ML21012, Family (It)SFR-DP640, Joker
(It)SM3233
-Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans (la vcl,*)
Swinghouse (E)SWH27
-Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans (bh vcl)
V-Disc 760, Loco (F)ML21012, Swing House (E)SWH27, Lady Day Box (It)LDB03(bh only),JUTB (It)3036 [CD] Sound Hills (Jap)8005/16 [CD], Masters of Jazz (F)MJCD184 [CD]

-Don't explain (bh vcl, p-2 only) (**) V-Disc 771, Jazz Society (F)67401, Joker
(It)SM3131, Saga (E)PAN6905, Kings of Jazz
(It)KLJ20002, Decca (G)PD12006, Locomotive
(F)ML21012, Ozone LP3, Family (It)SFR-PD640,
Festival (F)ALB144, Musidisc (F)CV1266, T.C.B.
1005, Boulevard (E)BD4113, Dan (Jap)VC5014,
Omniamusic OLP19002, Lady Day Box (It)LDB03,
JUTD (It)3036 [CD], Sound Hills (Jap)8005/16 [CD],
Masters of Jazz (F)MJCD184 [CD]
-Roll 'em Locomotive (F)ML21012, Family (It)SFR-DP640, Joker
SM3233
-When it's sleepy time down south

Note: Louis Armstrong's vocal on "Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans on V-Disc 760 and allied issues does not originate from Carnegie Hall but uses his vocal from the WNEW broadcast of April 26,1947; this is spliced on the V-Disc to Billie Holiday's vocal which is from this concert. Note also that the WNEW broadcast referred to has been erroneously listed previously as "February 18, 1947" or "Feb/Mar 1947"
Masters of Jazz (F)MJCD184 [CD] titled "Billie Holiday - volume 16, 1946-1948"; for rest of CD see "Billie Holiday"
All titles except (*) and (**) on Ambassador (Swd)CLA1919 [CD].
The Lady Day Box and Sound Hills box are listed completely under "Billie Holiday" beginning December 13, 1939, q.v.






Louis Armstrong & Billie Holiday
[H6804-4] Billie Holiday
Billie Holiday with Louis Armstrong and His Orchestra:

Louis Armstrong (tpt,vcl) Ed Mullens, William "Chieftie" Scott, Thomas "Sleepy" Grider, Robert Butler (tp) "Big Chief" Russell Moore, James Whitney, Alton "Slim" Moore (tb) Arthur Dennis, Amos Gordon (as) Lucky Thompson, Joe Garland (ts) John Sparrow (bs) Earl Mason (p) Elmer Warner (g) Arvell Shaw (b) Sidney Catlett (d) Billie Holiday (vcl)
Concert "Carnegie Hall", New York, February 8, 1947

-JB359 Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans ? V-Disc 760, Festival (F)ALB-144, Saga (E)ERO-8014(2), Saga (E)SAGA-6918(2), Swing House (E)SWH-27, De (G)PD-12006, Ozone 3, Dan (Jap)VC-5014, Lady Day Box (It)LDB03, JUTB (It)3036 [CD], Sound Hills (Jap)SSCD8005/16 [CD]

Edited by EKE BBB, 14 June 2005 - 05:52 PM.


#8 Rosco

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 06:41 PM

[b]Note: Louis Armstrong's vocal on "Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans on V-Disc 760 and allied issues does not originate from Carnegie Hall but uses his vocal from the WNEW broadcast of April 26,1947; this is spliced on the V-Disc to Billie Holiday's vocal which is from this concert.

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That clears something up that had always bothered me... it always sounded as though it was two performances crossfaded together. So now I know!

#9 Jim R

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 06:55 PM

Yep--Jazzbo's right, I'm pretty sure.. Check out the soundtrack to the film "New Orleans."  Clips at http://www.amazon.co...=music&n=507846 .  In fact, you can buy a poster from the movie that shows Satchmo and Billie performing together.

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First of all, thanks to all for all of the posts so far. Despite all of the info given, I have to admit I'm still a bit in the dark, both in terms of whether each version actually included both Billie and Louis singing; as well as what in-print CD's this material can be found on. I listened to the sample at Amazon for the "New Orleans" soundtrack (posted by Jeffro), but the sample is fairly short, and there's no sign of Louis on the clip.

The Lord listings confuse me a bit with regard to who's actually singing on what. The Lord listing for the 1946 version says "bh, vocal", so it isn't clear to me whether Louis sang on that track (although the listing at one of the discographies I posted specified two vocalists).

The Carnegie Hall version would be icing on the cake, I suppose, as I think she had the studio version. I'll have to ask her again.

#10 Jim R

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 07:08 PM


[b]Note: Louis Armstrong's vocal on "Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans on V-Disc 760 and allied issues does not originate from Carnegie Hall but uses his vocal from the WNEW broadcast of April 26,1947; this is spliced on the V-Disc to Billie Holiday's vocal which is from this concert.

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That clears something up that had always bothered me... it always sounded as though it was two performances crossfaded together. So now I know!

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:unsure: I got the impression that Armstrong's vocals were only dubbed in on certain issues... which would suggest that it was only Billie who sang it at the concert. In other words, I really can't figure this out for certain:

-Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans (la vcl,*)
Swinghouse (E)SWH27
-Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans (bh vcl)
V-Disc 760, Loco (F)ML21012, Swing House (E)SWH27, Lady Day Box (It)LDB03(bh only),JUTB (It)3036 [CD] Sound Hills (Jap)8005/16 [CD], Masters of Jazz (F)MJCD184 [CD]

This suggests (to me) that Louis handled the vocal alone (as issued on Swinghouse); AND that Billie was the only real vocalist (with Louis dubbed in) on V-disc and Allied.
Sorry, maybe it's just me, but I don't get it. :huh:

Edited by Jim R, 14 June 2005 - 07:13 PM.


#11 jazzbo

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 07:15 PM

Okay, here's what I can verify:

On the soundtrack recording there are two versions:

Version one Billie sings with Charlie Beal accompanying her on piano.

Version two Billie sings with Pops' band in the film accompanying her.

Louis doesn't even as much as go "Uh Huh," or "MMMMMmama" on these. Mum's the word!

The V-Disc version from Carnegie Hall DOES seem as if it is two separate performances merged.

Perhaps the only times that Billie and Pops actually sing together are on those wonderful Decca studio duet numbers?

#12 Jim R

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 10:00 AM

Okay, here's what I can verify:

On the soundtrack recording there are two versions:

Version one Billie sings with Charlie Beal accompanying her on piano.

Version two Billie sings with Pops' band in the film accompanying her.

Louis doesn't even as much as go "Uh Huh," or "MMMMMmama" on these.  Mum's the word!

The V-Disc version from Carnegie Hall DOES seem as if it is two separate performances merged.

Perhaps the only times that Billie and Pops actually sing together are on those wonderful Decca studio duet numbers?

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Thanks Lon. Wow, this just keeps getting wierder and wierder. Now I know why she's had so much trouble finding the right recording.

If anybody knows of any (other) version(s) with both Billie and Louis singing, please post...

#13 jazzbo

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 10:06 AM

There's a strong possibly she had the Carnegie Hall version which may or may not actually be the two on stage together.

#14 brownie

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 10:32 AM

Some explanation from the Down Beat review (by Michael Levin) of the Concert at Carnegie Hall, as published in Ken Vail's 'Lady Day's Diary':

Billie Holiday was brought on at the concert's close to fill the star-gap, joining Louis in New Orleans and her own Don't Explain. Audience liked her singing, but with the show running close to the 7:30 p.m. deadline as it was, the added number prevented Louis from getting a due measure of applause from a crowd there to hear him, not Miss Holiday.



#15 l p

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 09:25 AM

i think the b.h. soundhills box set has what you're looking for. that's JUTB in discographies.

Edited by l p, 17 June 2005 - 09:30 AM.


#16 Jim R

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 09:53 AM

i think the b.h. soundhills box set has what you're looking for. that's JUTB in discographies.

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I'd be interested to know why you think that.

I'm still holding out hope that there was indeed a two-vocal performance from 1946 in Los Angeles, but the evidence remains vague. Looking again at the listings (in my opening post) from the two Billie Holiday discographies I found online, it seems clear that there were at least three (and possibly five) recordings of the tune by Billie in L.A. in 1946, with Armstrong's band (although one was just a duet with pianist Charlie Beal)...

#17 l p

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:12 PM

i checked the jutb 1946 versions, and there's no armstrong vocal on them.
i thought that the box would have what you're talking about, because it has a note after the n.o. tunes: "note: these are the original studio recordings. Most previous issues are from the actual soundtrack and also include overdubbed talking."
so, the carnegie hall 1947 version seems to be the only one with b.h. and l.a. on vocals. the only other possibility is the 1946 version, which, according to billieholiday.be, is not on the film, and not on jutb:
30-sep-46 1'52''

#18 Jim R

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 12:19 AM

the only other possibility is the 1946 version, which, according to billieholiday.be, is not on the film, and not on jutb:
30-sep-46  1'52''

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I wonder. Too bad the discographies don't make things clearer...



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