[EKE BBB]

I´d like to know your comments on this wonderful concert. And the best CD release in your opinion.

Some comments on some releases (from my research):

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd700/d763/d76332fj90e.jpg

For this 1999 reissue, Phil Schaap re-sourced the concert from original 78 rpm transcription discs, leaving a lot of surface noise to preserve the original concert ambience.
He rescued "Sometimes I'm Happy," the show's original second number, and "If Dreams Come True," its original first encore, along with the unedited version of "Honeysuckle Rose" , all previously lost.



http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc600/c638/c638889ilff.jpg

Superceded by the previous one, this two-CD set issued in 1987 is still very worthwhile and has virtues that the reissue lacks. It was mastered from a triple-LP set that had been cleaned up and edited at the time of release in the early-'50s. It´s easy on the ear as far as sound quality, with none of the clicks and pops that intrude onto the remastered version.


And some more releases:

-The Collector´s "Carnegie Hall concerts": Disc two contains nine Benny Goodman numbers from the band's second Carnegie Hall concert, produced by John Hammond and held 21 months later. Which source does this release come from?


-and, as always, here comes that wretched Spanish label:
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre800/e893/e89309kdbe4.jpg
Again: which source does this release come from? This cover is from a 2001 release. Now, at least in Spanish stores, you can find a 2002 release (not Definitive Records, but Disconforme anyway: GV1351)


And a few more:

-http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf600/f618/f61837npsb2.jpg


- http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf900/f980/f98096tro6c.jpg


-http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf900/f958/f95891cpy8s.jpg


I know you´ll recommend one of the Columbias! ;)

[jazzbo]

To me there's no contest: the most recent Columbia release. I dislike cleaned up easy on the ears music from discs, I think that two cd set was da bomb.

[king ubu]

jazzbo, on Oct 3 2003, 01:43 PM, said:

To me there's no contest: the most recent Columbia release. I dislike cleaned up easy on the ears music from discs, I think that two cd set was da bomb.

Yes indeed!
But I did never own any of the others.
You get very good liner notes and comments, too, fat booklet.
And definitively DON'T get the definitive release... :w

ubu

[Jazzmoose]

First of all, thanks for mentioning this on the "now listening" thread, EKE BBB! Body and Soul just started playing...

I have the first two sets you picture above, and I must admit that the pops and snaps always annoy me during the first song, but after that I don't even hear them. When I first purchased the newest version, I was afraid I'd prefer the first, so I still have both. Yet I grabbed the newest without even thinking about it today. So I guess I must prefer the new one, pops and all! :g

[DrJ]

I certainly haven't heard all these, but the most recent version by Schaap sounds great. I'm also not a fan of using a lot of noise reduction. These recordings sound alive and "present," and for that I'll put up with a few pops and clicks.

[Chuck Nessa]

I think the Schaap version sounds like SHIT! Great music and we will not get it presented properly for another 5 years since they decided to issue this crap.

There is no reason for all the noise, and his liners about the history of the recordings is "fanciful" at best.

I think this reissue is a major flaw in the Sony program.

[Christiern]

Chuck Nessa, on Oct 3 2003, 08:37 PM, said:

I think the Schaap version sounds like SHIT! Great music and we will not get it presented properly for another 5 years since they decided to issue this crap.

There is no reason for all the noise, and his liners about the history of the recordings is "fanciful" at best.

I think this reissue is a major flaw in the Sony program.

I completely agree, Chuck. I believe this reissue contributed to Schaap being kicked out of Sony, although what he did with the Ellington Newport set and "Black, Brown and Beige" alone would have been sufficient justification.

BTW have you ever read an unedited liner by Phil? He makes Leslie Gourse read like Keats.

[catesta]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00002MZ2L.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

This is the only copy I've got and ever had. The music is indeed great, but I have a hard time getting past the sound quality.

[Gigolo]

Noise Reduction = No Free Lunch. You're not just reducing the noise but eliminating part of the recording.

Schaap made the right choice.

[youmustbe]

Gigolo is right.

I grew up on the vinyl. So atmospheric! I also have the vinyl, which I love even more, the 1937/1938 concerts...I was talking to Clark Terry about Harry James yesterday, my first idol! Harry was everybody's idol, the Kenny G of his time!

But, as someone who has produced, mixed AND mastered a lot of records, to paraphrase Gigolo...'Noise Reduction = Dull Sound!'

[Christiern]

Noise reduction need not eliminate any part of the recorded signal. It often does, but that's simply poor work on the part of the transfer engineer. I spent almost three years working nightly with the late Larry Hiller at Columbia (on the complete Bessie Smith reissue, mainly). The then conventional noise reduction method did indeed cut off the highs and, in general, yield unsatisfactory results. We did a lot of experimenting using Dolby in an unconventional way, we had custom-made styli, and we used as many as four pressings of a selection to come up with a good one (determining which side of the groove had the wear, for example, and taking from each pressing the cleanest passage). We also found a novel way of de-ticking; the conventional method was to physical cut ticks and pops out of the tape, but when you have a lot of them, you begin to lose meter. We discovered that it could be done without cutting and splicing, and the solution was very simple: an old-fashioned typewriter eraser. It is because we had the luxury of no time restraint that we wwere able to do all this, but I think it was worth it, and NARAS awarded Larry a well-deserved Grammy for his work.

Today,it is done digitally. I can tell you that the horrendous surface noise on Schaap's Benny Goodman release could have been reduced, if not eliminated, without marring the music in any way.

This post has been edited by Christiern: 04 October 2003 - 10:16 AM

[medjuck]

I'll probably get stoned for this but I have both the Schaap version and the
Definitive release and I prefer the latter. For a long comparison of the 2 go to:

http://groups.google...t&output=gplain

I kept the Schaap only because I liked having the longer applause and setting up sounds as a record of the evening. I suspect that Definitve merely remastered using the CBS release. They did the same thing with their Charlie Christian live set: ripped off the Masterw of Jazz version. However in both cases they did a great job! As someone who make his living from intellectual copyright I've only assuaged my conscience by knowing that I've already bought several versions from Sony and that (I think) Masters of Jazz no longer exists and didn't pay royalties.

[Clunky]

What was wrong with Schapps Ellington at Newport. I thought it sounded terrific compared to the previous CD version. Have to confess I dont listen much to the extra material.

[montg]

Quote

There is no reason for all the noise, and his liners about the history of the recordings is "fanciful" at best.

I think this reissue is a major flaw in the Sony program.

I COMPLETELY agree with this. And you'll notice Schaap hasn't been invited back to the party by Sony since this release and the Ellington Newport.

I have the Avid release remastered by Dave Bennett and I HIGHLY recommend it. If anybody thinks noise reduction inevitably causes loss in fidelity, I would urge you to give this a try. It can be had fairly cheaply by buying directly from Avid.

avid goodman

I had the Sony release and sold it as soon as I could.

This post has been edited by montg: 04 October 2003 - 02:34 PM

[P.D.]

montg, on Oct 4 2003, 02:31 PM, said:

.

I have the Avid release remastered by Dave Bennett and I HIGHLY recommend it. If anybody thinks noise reduction inevitably causes loss in fidelity, I would urge you to give this a try. It can be had fairly cheaply by buying directly from Avid.

avid goodman

I had the Sony release and sold it as soon as I could.

Montg.. as you have the Avid could you answer the following.. does it have the complete Honeysuckle Rose with Claytons three choruses, the Carney and Freddie Green solos.?

As stated in another thread on this ( elsewhere).. The Schaap Goodman is the only CD I have ever bought that caused me to call the company and complain about it.

[JSngry]

Clunky, on Oct 4 2003, 02:25 PM, said:

What was wrong with Schapps Ellington at Newport.

Same question here. I know he royally botched the SUCH SWEET THUNDER reissue, but what about Newport?

This post has been edited by JSngry: 04 October 2003 - 03:33 PM

[montg]

P.D.,
The honeysuckle jam session on the Avid is 13:54. I don't know if that includes everything or not.

From the liners:
"a couple of additional band tracks from the event have been uncovered but they cannot be included for copyright reasons"

I think the source material is the 1950 release (most likely mint)

[Matthew]

JSngry, on Oct 4 2003, 01:33 PM, said:

Clunky, on Oct 4 2003, 02:25 PM, said:

What was wrong with Schapps Ellington at Newport.

Same question here. I know he royally botched the SUCH SWEET THUNDER reissue, but what about Newport?

If I remember from the discussion on Blue Note Board, several members of the boad challenged Schapps' version of history. In fact, he was accussed of making the facts fit in such a way that he comes out to be the hero, which some found unethical. Which facts? you might ask. I remember two main questions. 1. His version of how he found this magical tape of the complete performance. 2. His statement that there was friction between band members that night. Hope I got these right.

[Shrdlu]

... and there was I, enjoying the schnapps version without even knowing that there was an issue ...

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry, just enjoy the music. That is the point after all is said and done.

[P.D.]

Matthew, on Oct 4 2003, 04:35 PM, said:

JSngry, on Oct 4 2003, 01:33 PM, said:

Clunky, on Oct 4 2003, 02:25 PM, said:

What was wrong with Schapps Ellington at Newport.

Same question here. I know he royally botched the SUCH SWEET THUNDER reissue, but what about Newport?

If I remember from the discussion on Blue Note Board, several members of the boad challenged Schapps' version of history. In fact, he was accussed of making the facts fit in such a way that he comes out to be the hero, which some found unethical. Which facts? you might ask. I remember two main questions. 1. His version of how he found this magical tape of the complete performance. 2. His statement that there was friction between band members that night. Hope I got these right.

Well you could argue that this " botches" the notes but the disc itself is far superior to the earlier versions. I see nothing wrong in havtng the studio versions and the actual concert performances altogether in one package.

I suspect the initial comment was directed towards Thunder, which was spoiled somewhat by Schaaps selection of material... though a somewhat plausible excuse was reported in Jazz Journal, in which Schaap blamed Sony/Columbia for the errors.

[Christiern]

The liner notes were anotherself-glorifying Schaap fantasy. Among other things, he contradicted Dukes own account re Jo Jones having been a positive factor. Schaap is a very dishonest person when it comes to relating jazz history--he is a revisionist who invents things to maker himself appear more knowledgable. In this case, he wants us to think that he knows more than Duke, who, after all, was present at Newport! I recall a radio interview where he told an older musician that he had the wrong date for his own birthday!

Then there was Black, Brown and Beige, on which he included a track he called "Mahalia Swears." She did no such thing (although she was capable). She was having a problem with the lyrics so she said "Help me, Jesus!." Well, Schaap edited out the "help me" part to make it sound like she might have been swearing. It was typical of the sort of thing Schaap does to attract attention to himself. He was kicke out of Verve when he claimed that some Ella Berlin tracks were previously unissued--they weren't, but that fact somehow escaped Mr. know-it-all.

I guess it's obvious that I have no respect whatsoever for Phil Schaap--I don't/

[ghost of miles]

Christiern, on Oct 4 2003, 06:04 PM, said:

Then there was Black, Brown and Beige, on which he included a track he called "Mahalia Swears." She did no such thing (although she was capable). She was having a problem with the lyrics so she said "Help me, Jesus!." Well, Schaap edited out the "help me" part to make it sound like she might have been swearing.

Damn! That's not just being sloppy or erroneous, that's being downright duplicitous. What a disservice to both Mahalia Jackson and jazz history.

[ghost of miles]

JSngry, on Oct 4 2003, 03:33 PM, said:

Clunky, on Oct 4 2003, 02:25 PM, said:

What was wrong with Schapps Ellington at Newport.

Same question here. I know he royally botched the SUCH SWEET THUNDER reissue, but what about Newport?

I know about the Clark Terry solo flap, but what else happened with that one? Man, how on earth was this guy allowed to monkey around with the recordings of an artistic legend and national treasure like Duke Ellington?

[JSngry]

ghost of miles, on Oct 4 2003, 06:46 PM, said:

JSngry, on Oct 4 2003, 03:33 PM, said:

Clunky, on Oct 4 2003, 02:25 PM, said:

What was wrong with Schapps Ellington at Newport.

Same question here. I know he royally botched the SUCH SWEET THUNDER reissue, but what about Newport?

I know about the Clark Terry solo flap, but what else happened with that one?

That was enough!

[Christiern]

What is really amazing is that Sony gave this clown the reissue assignments when George Avakian, who produced the original sessions, is but a phone call away.

[P.D.]

Clark's Puck was one of the highlights that really helped " confirm" the suites association with Shakespeare. I read that Clark himself was upset at the way it had been left off the disc.

They claim it will be put on a future Ellington CD as a bonus track, but somehow it wont be the same out of context.

[EKE BBB]

Take a look at this comparison of the Definitive set with the the three Columbias (LP, first CD incarnation, 1999 Phil Schaap CD reissue):

http://groups.google...7?output=gplain

Interesting points.

[LAL]

Thanks EKE for the link. I only listened to the '99 set once and decided I couldn't go through that noise again, great concert notwithstanding. Now, the Definitive looks tempting.

[Christiern]

From the linked comparison review: The 1999 reissue is a good idea gone bad: anal-retentiveness carried to its reductio absurdum. Schaap seems to regard the original discs as some kind of holy icon, not to be touched by human hands."

:tup :tup :tup

sad to say.