Hey all,
I know there's a Sam Rivers discussion going on elsewhere, but this is a kind of offshoot... I'm putting together a "Night Lights" program that focuses on Rivers' time with Miles in 1964, as well as some of Rivers' recordings for Blue Note with Miles sidemen in 1964-65, and wondered what your thoughts were as to why Sam's stay with Miles did not "work out," as it were. The conventional wisdom seems to be that Rivers was not willing to accommodate himself to Miles' aesthetic vision, or that he was more avant-garde in his direction than Miles was willing to be at that time. I'm not sure I really buy that, listening to what I've heard of both Rivers w/Miles in 1964 (two live performances in Japan that exist outside of MILES IN TOKYO) and Rivers' own work for Blue Note shortly thereafter. I mean, there may be some grains of truth there, but such explanations strike me as terribly reductive.

I just did some Googling and came up with this Jazz at Lincoln Center webchat that Rivers did about four years ago:

I've often wondered about this musical relationship as well. I actually don't think it's reductive, though, to simply say that their musical visions didn't gel. My guess is that Miles just didn't like Sam's playing. Now that sounds really reductive, and maybe it is, but it could be the simple truth. (Miles was on record, publicly, as not caring for Dolphy's or Ornette's playing, so it's not too surprising to me to imagine him not caring for Rivers' playing.)

A reverse scenario is interesting to consider: How well would Miles have fit in for the recording of Dimensions & Extensions, or, for that matter, Tony Williams' Spring? I think Miles' musical training, as strange as this is going to sound, often prevented him from "hearing" certain musical contexts. Here's one quote from Miles on Ornette (for relativity):

"Hell, just listen to what he writes and how he plays. If you're talking psychologically, the man is all screwed up inside."
Jazz Masters of the 50's

And another (this time for a DownBeat Blindfold Test on Cecil Taylor's "Lena"):

"Take it off! That's some sad shit, man. In the first place, I hear some Charlie Parker clichés. They don't even fit. Is that what the critics are digging? ... Just to take something like that and say it's great, because there ain't nothing to listen to, that's like going out and getting a prostitute. ... I can tell he's influenced by Duke, but to put the loud pedal on the piano and make a run is very old-fashioned to me. ... That's the reason I don't buy any records."

Now, we all know that Davis was (surely) outspoken, but this (just as surely) didn't negate his opinions. It's strange. For as much as he didn't seem to appreciate Rivers' playing, he did appreciate George Coleman's ... but Tony Williams didn't, and there went George (more or less).

Good question!

Oh. The interview you Googled up kinda deflates some of my "theories"? I still wonder what Miles actually would have said about Rivers' playing.

If I come across the source, I'll post it.

This comes from the website that Guy mentioned:

I seem to remember reading that it was Tony Williams (mostly), Herbie Hancock, and Ron Carter that requested Miles pursue Sam Rivers after the split with George Coleman. Miles' first choice was Wayne Shorter, who was currently employed as director of Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers, so Miles gave into the rest of the band and hired Sam Rivers. Sam was with T-Bone Walker until July of 1964, when he joined the Miles Davis Quintet for Japan.

Before joining, he had already developed an interest in the new wave, as were Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock, and Ron Carter. To a degree. I think the recordings paint a pretty accurate picture of this. When Miles Davis solos, the band plays one way. When Sam Rivers solos, the band plays all kinds of ways!

Late summer, early fall, after more than two years of pursuance from Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter joined the band. John Gilmore replaced Wayne Shorter with the Jazz Messengers, and Sam Rivers went on to play with Andrew Hill. This was around the same time Tony Williams recorded Lifetime, a radically different record from anything these musicians were doing with Miles Davis' Quintet at the time.

I think it was just natural progression. Sam Rivers was rapidly developing during this time, when Miles was re-focusing and trying to get THE band together. He wanted to be elsewhere, and Miles wanted Wayne Shorter, who had finally become available.

With Miles, it seems there was always another story...

I remember a decent discussion on this band, probably at BNBB. Hopefully Lon will tune in soon. I seem to remember he had a good deal of insight on this period in time.

While waiting it might be a good time to try and define in words what is meant by "inside" and "outside" playing in the context of the band. Inside the chord changes, or staying near the melody? Swing time, rubato or pulse rhythms? Where does blues expressiveness end and freer expressiveness begin? Since Miles band in this period was also going towards modes as a primary means of organizing the improvisations, may it have been that was too "lean" on musical material for Rivers to fully realize the sounds he was hearing and trying to get out the horn?

Miles mid-60's bands were not THAT commercial. 15 minute versions of "My Funny Valentine"? The "time, no changes" feel of that classic rhythm section?

Questions for discussion.

According to the sessionography, Sam Rivers played stateside with the Miles Davis Quintet as early as April. They didn't travel to Japan until July, which leaves a lot to the imagination! Reading some of the recollections above leads me to believe that things sort of finally came to a head between Sam Rivers and Miles Davis during their stay in Japan.

I was fortunate enough to be quite friendly with Sam back in the mid '70s when he presided over numerous concerts at his Studio Rivbea in the east Village. On one occasion circa the summer of '74, I mentioned to Sam that I had just received an open reel dub of a concert he had done with Miles back in July '64. He said that it had been released on Japanese CBS. I replied, no, that this was the Kyoto concert held the following evening. His eyes opened wide and he asked if he could come over to my place to hear it with his wife, Bea. "Of course", instantly realizing that this would be one of life's high moments of existence. Well, he and Bea did come over on a Saturday afternoon. We proceeded to "light up", and as I played the open reel tape, I dubbed it onto a 2nd open reel to give to him. Needless to say, it was a memorable day and I particularly recall his & Bea's enjoyment of the "Oleo" track.

To get to the point of this thread, I asked him why his stint with Miles was so short. He didn't reveal much other than to say that he was enthusiastic about hooking up with Andrew Hill shortly thereafter.

Another question, in addition to Lazaro's very telling ones: why is Sony not including the 7/12 and 7/15 concerts in the forthcoming 1963-64 box?
And are there any other musical/audio documents of Miles & Rivers together from earlier that year?

P.S. Just read your post--great story, MartyJazz! Yeah, I like that "Oleo" track quite a lot and intend to play it on the program.

In the new Andrew Hill Jazzpar Octet Cd, Hill mentions Rivers was to have been the saxophonist on "Point of Departure."

I thought that was Charles Lloyd?

By the way, at the end of the day, Davis was right to hold out for Shorter. Maybe it was Shorter's approximation of Coltrane's sound during that time, or his incredible writing.

Haven't you ever had a woman in your life that you just "had to have," that is, be close to? And whenever the chance came around, no matter who you were with, it was an "if only" idea in the back of your head whenever you saw her?

Seems like Wayne was that kind of musician to Miles. Just had to have him in his band.

I definitely agree, Lazaro. As intriguing as it is to think of what direction the band might have taken with Rivers, it was obviously in both artists' interests to pursue the paths that they did. I just find the whole Davis/Rivers chapter fascinating; I'm calling the program "A Brief Convergence."
Rivers on POINT OF DEPARTURE? Wow... I can imagine that more than I can his joining the Messengers.

Hey, you guys are correct, it was Charles Lloyd. Sorry about that. My bad.

Re-read that at work tonight...

Not that I care that much, but I don't understand Sam 'going' with Andrew Hill, instead of Blakey. Andrew had no gigs at the time.

From Robert Palmer's 1975 liner notes to INVOLUTION (BN-LA453-HZ):

In 1964, Rivers went on the road with blues guitarist T-Bone Walker. "T-Bone and all the other blues artists who hired me just wanted to to play the blues to the best of my ability," he says. "They weren't talking about stand up there and honk. They were talking about stand up there and play the blues."

In the middle of the tour with Walker, Rivers recieved a telegram from Tony Williams... "Come to New York," the message began, George Coleman...split. Miles wants you to join his group." Williams had played Davis tapes of the Rivers quartet from Harvard Square and the trumpeter had liked what he heard. Sam stayed with the Davis band...for six months, touring Japan...and the U'S. "Miles was still doing things that were...pretty straight", he recalls. "I was there, but I was somewhere else too. I guess it sounds funny, but I was already ahead of that. I kept stretching out and playing really long solos, and that's probably why I didn't last. We recorded an album in Japan, and then when we got back to New York, Miles got Wayne Shorter."

For a revealing (from several perspectives) glimpse of how Rivers might have sounded with T-Bone, check out his solo (and composition) on "The Elder Speaks" on the 12-14-61 Tadd Dameron date included on Blue Note's THE LOST SESSIONS.

As far as the "transfer" to Wayne Shorter form Blakey, please remember that "transfer" and "exchange" are not the same thing.

And while I haven't done extensive research into the activities of Hill or Rivers during this period, what I do know doesn't fit in -

2/24/65 - Hill in Toronto without Rivers (Hutcherson, McBee, Chambers)
5/23/65 - Rivers in Baltimore without Hill (Hancock, Carter, Williams)
9/65 - Rivers in NYC without Hill (Grimes, Williams)
11?/65 - Hill in NYC without Rivers (solo piano?)
2?/66 - Rivers in Boston without Hill (Galper, Phil Morrison, Steve Ellington)

BUT FINALLY !
3/66 - Hill in San Francisco with Rivers
8/21/66 - Hill in Baltimore with Rivers (Richard Davis, Chambers) - but group did not show

Mike

I wouldn't be surprised to find that there were NONmusical reasons at play as is often the case in musical groupings (and Miles is no stranger to conflict among band members). Perhaps Miles didn't like NOT being the only old man in the group. Shorter fit in more with the age grouping of the rest of the band, Rivers did not. Maybe Miles couldn't lord it over Sam in the way he may have wanted to. Maybe Sam and Tony had a deeper relationship than Miles wished the two to have and he felt challenged by it.

Either way I'd like there to be more of Sam in the group to hear, but if there isn't (I have three shows altogether to hear) so be it. We've got what followed.

Another consideration is that there are any number of different wasy to play "out" (which, like "avabt-garde", is one of those terms that has merit in general conversation but no real musical meaning). The way Sam player "out" and the way Wayne did it were two different beasts, and Miles obviously preferred Wayne's, at least for his band (and I think Lon is right about the "non-musical" reasons, and I think that that came into play as far as Miles' reaction to Sam as a member of his band as opposed to as a musician in general).

I also think that Miles was going to gat Wayne whenever, whereever, and however. That's pretty obvious from the various anecdotal histories.

Very much agree with you, Jim!

There is no mention of Rivers in Michael Fitzgerald's Chronology of Art Blakey. As far as Rivers' tenure with T-Bone Walker is concerned - as a pro you play any kind of gig if you need money. But you expect different things to happen in this band compared to Miles' quintet with its rather open approach. Miles really may have wnated to be the "old man", i.e. leader of the band, and Sam's natural authority and dexterity and his bonds with Tony may have been too much. Furthermore, being a Gemini, there is always a tension between conservative and progressive strains in Miles' music - he wanted to take the music further out, but not as far out as Ornette or Trane or Cecil Taylor. And Rivers and Tony certainly could have done that - Tony wanted to play with Cecil at the time. But he was still so young and perhaps couldn't quite make up his mind.
I think Miles was real mad at the loss of Trane, and Shorter was the closest, he had wanted him as early as 1960 when he had just joined the Messengers. But at the same time Shorter stayed inside enough to make it easier for Miles. I always think Shorter observed Trane's path and decided not to follow him, for various reasons.

Yes, I think Miles had decided on Wayne and was going to get Wayne to complete his group of Young Lions. . . . Wayne had both the sort of mainstream jazz jobbing experience Miles could relate to, AND that Trane friendship and kindred/if maybe a few times removed exploratory track record. . . .

PLUS Miles and Wayne had performed and recorded before (the 1962 Dorough session at least, probably other occasions) and he KNEW what the man was capable of and bring to the band, and he could weigh that against Sam's performances every occasion. . . !

I've never heard it - but they did tape (everything? most things? some things?) at Left Bank, so I wouldn't give up hope.

Incidentally, the only intersection of Rivers and Blakey I have right now is at the Grande Parade du Jazz in Nice, July 1988 when Rivers was performing with Dizzy, and Blakey was in the audience for their set.

Mike

For what it is worth, Sam Rivers toured with Dizzy Gillespie in the 1980's and they came through Grand Rapids -- a club date, two hours of music, at least. Impressions? Rivers looked like a needle wrapped in brown leather -- he's rail thin. Musically, he played himself, but didn't play at the extremes of register he's capable of, just really fit with the band. It was cool. (Ed Cherry was on that group, maybe Will Lee on electric bass, but can't remember for sure).

John Lee, not Will Lee. Ignacio Berroa on drums most likely. I saw that band several times, as well as when Dizzy played Carnegie Hall with the quintet forming the basis for his big band. That was on John Lee's birthday, June 28.

Mike

What follows is from a 1997 interview of Sam Rivers by Ted Panken. The entire interview is located in the "Library" portion of the Jazz Journalist Association's web site.

The Dizzy show on TV was probably the Monmouth Battlefield State Park gig that I attended in 1987. They filmed that for NJN. It was a beautiful setting. Fathead Newman played first.

Mike

The differences in Sam's 1975 and 1997 stories are certainly, uh.... INTERESTING!

"John Lee, not Will Lee." Thanks Micheal, that's right: I see his face, but get those names confused. John played electric, and Will is Spike Lee's dad, right? What an exciting group Diz had in that period.

Uh oh -

Will Lee is the white, blonde haired electric bassist, best known as a charter member of the David Letterman band led by Paul Shaffer. He does have jazz chops and played in Dreams with Billy Cobham, the Breckers, Abercrombie, etc.

http://www.willlee.com/biography.php

His father is Dr. William F. Lee, former bigwig at University of Miami and IAJE and author of People In Jazz - credited to Bill Lee (plus other books on Kenton, Maynard, etc.). He's a piano player.

Now, Spike Lee's father is Bill Lee - the bassist who worked with Josh White, Odetta, John Handy, various Chicago folks, etc.

http://home.att.net/~soundart/11_billlee.htm

John Lee is the black electric bassist - pretty sure he is not related to any of the above.

http://www.dizzyalumni.com/artistpages/leeframe.htm

Mike