Hi everyone,
I'm new here (but I've been lurking for a few months now) so I guess I'll give you a quick bit of background. I'm in college and am a huge jazz fan. I mostly listen to trumpet artists because I played the trumpet for about 12 years. Unfortunately I don't have time anymore, but I plan to pick it up again later.

Anyways, on to my question. I have many albums by Miles Davis, such as "Kind of Blue", "Birth of Cool", "Milestones", "'Round about Midnight", "In a Silent Way", "Cookin", and "Seven Steps To Heaven". Recently I have been looking for new albums to add to my collection.

Here are several I looked at/listened to:
1. Sketches of Spain
2. Bitches Brew
3. Someday My Prince Will Come

There were a few others, but I can't remember them. I really enjoy most of the albums I have now, but these new three that I listened to are bizarre. Many have extremely long tracks (which I find boring) or just don't seem to have a lot of substance. However, I know these (or at least Sketches and Brew) are considered to be huge classics.

Could anyone tell me what I should be listening for? Perhaps I'm just into the "straightforward" stuff, but I really didn't care for these at all.

Try the other Gil Evans/Miles collaborations - Miles Ahead and Porgy & Bess.

Also: Cannonball Adderley's Somethin' Else, which is often regarded as a Miles session.

Also: Maybe you should try some other trumpeters, such as Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, Kenny Dorham, Freddie Hubbard.

Thanks for the welcome

I already have Porgy and Bess (forgot to mention) and I looked at "Miles Ahead" and it seems like I might like it, but it also seems to have some of the characteristics that I don't like (song with long portions of non melodic lines). It kind of sounds like background music for half the song. Am I interpreting these correctly, or am I just off base?

Kenny,
I have a bunch of stuff by other trumpeters (like the ones you mentioned), but I felt I didn't have enough of Miles. Some of these (like Sketches) are supposed to be really good, which is why I am curious about why I hate them so much. Furthermore, I want to know if I simply don't like the style, or I don't know how to appreciate it.

Which other trumpeters have you been listening to?

Insofar as getting Bitches Brew, it's not a bad idea to think of it as a louder, bigger, messier version of In a Silent Way. There's a lot more to it than that, but I think both albums are coming from the same place. Put the two back to back, and when you listen to BB, think "what am I hearing that I also heard on IaSW? What makes it sound different?" Pay attention to the more conventionally jazzy elements of the album (most obvious on disc 2) -- the brilliant solos by Miles (especially on "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down"), Wayne Shorter and John McLaughlin.

For the first year or so of owning Bitches Brew, it made absolutely no sense to me. A lot of it sounded like random gibberish. But once I started seeing the trees for the forest, the music blew my mind. The album makes so much sense to me these days that it's hard to believe I didn't understand it once.

As far as Sketches -- it isn't my favorite album, but "Solea" is a work of fricking genius. His playing over that snaking groove (with ever changing orchestrations) just blows my mind every time I hear it. (And oddly, I think this piece anticipates some of the stuff on BB. I'm surprised nobody has ever commented on the Gil Evans influence that crept into the later album.)

Guy

Mace, in all honesty, while I enjoy Sketches and Bitches Brew, I think of them as oddities of a sort, so in a way, I don't get them either. In other words, it seems that the others involved (Evans on the former, a multitude on the latter) are more the focus than Miles.

I'm puzzled as to Prince being included on your list, though. That one seems to be pure Miles to me. Oh, well...

Where's Couw when you need him?

All I have to say is check out the Blackhawk "live" sessions, w/Wynton Kelly, PC, Jimmy Cobb, and Hank Mobley on tenor. This is "straight-ahead", and about as swingin' a rhythm section as you'll find in the history of jazz (seriously!). I don't think you'll be disappointed.

I bought Bitches Brew in Dec 1976. It took me until the mid-90s before the penny dropped!

The difficulty I had was the way each track seemed to cling to one or two scales throughout. Listening to 'In a Silent Way' (which I'd not heard until the mid 90s) unlocked it for me.

I don't think it's a record anyone can say 'listen for this' and all will make sense. Just play it every few months. One day it might just click.

'Spanish Key' was the track that I found most approachable. The key shift there gives the music a feeling of structure that seem to have been deliberately avoided on the rest of the record.

I like most of the stuff with Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams. Why not pick up that box set? Forget the exact title of it offhand. I've got all the individuals. ESP and NEFERTITI are outstanding.

I've never been much of a fan of the Miles/Gil Evans collaborations. "Sketches" seems to me to be rather kitschy and pretentious.


As others have noted, "BB" is usually a litmus test as to whether you will like later-Miles. A lot of people never get into it. I did, but it took me a while.

I'd second the Blackhawk set.

I recommend the Relaxin'/Cookin' Prestige series of Miles sessions. If you like 'straight' Miles you get Miles, straight. I enjoy these sessions as much for Red Garland as for Miles Davis.

Oh, and you get John Coltrane too. How 'bout Philly Joe popping the drums? Yeah, and what the hell, might as well toss in Paul Chambers on the bass.

Mace1370 you are not alone in thinking the Sketches title is not as great as your expectations. I've listened to Sketches of Spain many times. To my ears, the Miles Davis & Gil Evans material is not the best of Miles.

When I first started listening to jazz, Miles was one of the artists I was into. Because I had always "collected" my favorite artists (Bob Dylan, Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell), I thought I'd do the same with Miles. Well, first of all Miles has a MUCH bigger discography than any artist I had previously collected, which made getting "everything" next to impossible (I have over forty Miles albums today, and still don't have "everything"). Secondly, Miles went through so many stylistic changes over the years that it made listening to different albums difficult for the jazz neophyte (such as I was at the time). "Sketches" and "BB" were two of the albums I didn't "get" in those early days. In fact, I actively hated both. But I can tell you that after years of experience listening to all kinds of jazz (not just Miles) these albums came to be favorites of mine. I agree with Moose that these are somewhat anomalous when compared with the rest of Miles' catalogue. My suggestion is just to keep enjoying what you enjoy and let the rest take care of itself. If you come around on these albums, great. If not, it's cool. One man's meat is another man's poison, as they say.

I also agree that I don't quite "get" your problem with "Someday..." That one is extremely accessable, it seems to me.

I forget...do you have any of Miles's Prestige recordings? If not, I suggest the four "N" albums: "Cookin'," "Relaxin'," "Workin," and "Steamin'." Also, "And the Modern Jazz Giants" and "Bag's Groove" are well worth checking out. You might also enjoy "Birth of the Cool" if you don't have that yet. The RVG is breathtaking...

Edit...I see you do have "Cookin'" and "Birth of the Cool."

I'll say it out loud and await the tempest to come. There are now and there have always been better trumpet players than Miles. Irwin Stokes and Nicholas Payton are two of the best. I decided to admit the emperor had no clothes during a Miles concert where he was dressed as a dervish or something, turned his back as usual on the audience and allowed electronics to take center stage, rather than jazz. And when the audience lit up their reefers in appreciation my wife and I walked out, to the superior taunts of the fans nearby, I gave up on Miles and went home to listen to some records by Louis and Warren Vache.
So if theres some Miles that you don't really care for, it isn't your fault. Face it. He recorded a lot of shit. Believe your ears.

'Sketches' is not a favourite of mine either...

...except...

..."Solea" at the end as Guy has already mentioned. I'd throw in the previous track, "Saeta", as well. These two strike me as equal to anything he put on disc.
I don't think its a coincidence that they are also the only two tracks on the album that arn't tiptoeing around arrangements of a classical pieces.

Try playing them alone.

Me too Guy.

Sketches was ruined for me for a long time by a roommate who used to totter home, put it on a reverb laden Motorola console stereo he had in the living room, crank it up, put whatever side was on on repeat, and then crash out on the couch snoring for hours. . . .

Took a long time to get over that. When I finally COULD listen to that album years and years later in the cd age I found I really love it. The voicings of the ensembles that Evans does, the texture that he creates in an ebb and flow, and the sometimes whack (to me) way that Miles responds with his statements (with wild tones for the times!) . . . . I think it deserves to stand as a masterpiece.

But man, please, NO REVERB.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice

My advice would be that if this music isn't connecting, leave it alone. The fact that a recording or set of recordings is highly regarded doesn't mean everyone has to like it.

The chances are that at some point you'll hear the music in a different context, when you're not expecting it and something will click. Come back to it then.

If it doesn't, so what? There's so much wonderful music out there you'll never be without something that makes sense.

Bev gives really good advice. I keep listening to music that I've listened to for decades and finding a ndew approach to the material. And I'm now enjoying things that I distinctly didn't enjoy before, and couldn't be bothered to listen to items that used to excite me in the past.

The "K2" versions mentioned above. . . K2 is a mastering process developed by JVC and used on both Japanese and some American cds. There are Japanese versions of all the Miles Davis Prestige titles available in K2 versions, and some of these have been released in K2 versions in America by Fantasy/OJC. Also K2 is an integral part of the XRCD process and many of the Prestige Davis titles have been available in XRCD.

If you don't get Miles, move on. Have a life. Your loss.

What else do you need an instruction book for?

I looked at your list of trumpeters...given who you're listening to, you might really enjoy Roy Eldridge. He's truly one of the greats--as a trumpeter you'll appreciate his incredible range and control. He's one of the most purely exciting trumpters in jazz history.

'Sketches' doesn't do much for me either. I've always felt it was overly pretentious. Nothing pretentious about Eldridge, on the other hand.

P.S. If you've been ready the board for a few months, you'll know that that's just Chuck's way of saying 'welcome aboard'.

i've been diggin hugh ragin lately.

I really like most of his recorded output. The collaborations with Evans (including "Sketches") are all superb but some have more appeal. "Porgy and Bess" is so beautifully orchestrated that it catches you from its first notes. BB is really (like was said before) should be listened in a relation to IaSW but also it has relation to "Kind of Blue". Essentially this is modal music (I'm talking only from harmonic point of view; the record is much more advanced rhythmically and melodically). My belief is there only one step separating between modal and free jazz. BB like many Miles' records from the middle of the 60s somewhat closer to modal but has elements of free jazz (playing out of harmony, unusual song structures etc.). These are actually very unfriendly records (not like other Miles from Prestige for example) and really may require some time to understand them.
I will add another advice for BB listening: there is a lot going on there, many "layers" of music. You should try and listen for each layer separately (a time consuming task).

Have you checked out AL HIRT AT CARNEGIE HALL? It's got a Gerald Wilson arrangement on it.

Well, it DOES!

I lost track of "where I was" and was about to suggest merging this thread with the "Miles, WTF" thread - but we are already there.

FWIW SoS is pretentious and at the same time some of the greatest recorded statements by a trumpet playing musician on record. Magnificent.

Nothing wrong with pretensions if they pay off like this.

I've loved, and been affected by, this music for 40+ years.

To me, the obvious answer is not Miles Davis at all, it's Maynard Ferguson. Judging by your list, I can't imagine you'd find anything like the same problems with Maynard. After that, you can go with 1970s Kenton and Herman, maybe some Buddy Rich. Loud, high, and fast. "Less is more"? No way - more is more. And too much is almost just enough.

Mike

I have a tangential question: When did it become so important that a jazz musician play perfectly? That the only mistakes are to be intentional, inserted to exhibit a bit of humanity. A particular decade? The rise of a particular genre / school of thought? Blame it on the '70s? Was it Marsalis and his ilk and their wax museum recreation of the sounds of the past?

Seems like to some, the playing must have that sheen, like a freshly waxed car. All must glisten. All must be perfection. (New car smell optional.)

Or maybe it's not seen as important and I'm mistaken.

(This question comes to my mind every time a discussion is begun as to the voice of Miles.)

These are the kind of discussions that leave me scratching my noggin. I've heard loads of great Miles Davis where I couldn't tell you where he flubbed a note, every noise he made sounds intentional and well played to me since I don't know shit about manipulating a horn.

I've also got some killer Al Hirt tracks. Serious!

Did you say flat or fat?

Mike

Perfection means you're too comfortable; take some chances...

Human beings are imperfect by nature. Jazz musicians are human beings. Therefore, jazz musicians are imperfect.

I like it when guys really stretch out/challenge themselves and their audience. Makes you feel a bit uncomfortable. Sometimes that's a good thing. You're not going anywhere if you don't try new things and challenge your normal ways of thinking.

I'd suggest a different tack on Miles. Why not listen to some early Miles when he was getting his act together with Charlie Parker. He takes some good solos on these sides and he even had his first leader session for Savoy while with Bird (who's on tenor). I think this was more of a way for Savoy to record Bird without Bird having to pay royalties to Dial, which gets me why don't you get Bird Savoy/Dial sessions. Even if you don't love anything, there's lot of Miles, it's a great introduction to both Bird and Bop (although that's probably synonomous).

I can't even look at Sketches of Spain as a jazz album, per say.

Fortunately, jazz is far from the only music I like.

Sketches is gorgeous, the way an oft-neglected Andante movement of a moderately well-known symphony is, or that ballad on a rock album that you skipped to get to the "good stuff" but then fell in love with when you've heard the big hit a million times and you want to revisit the whole album.