Self-explanatory. I know there are other good ones.
Sorry Other.
Full Version: Favorite Trombonist
Curtis
Slide Hampton is still an absolutely awesome player, too! I don't know what Fuller has been up to lately, but I do like his early stuff (the Mosaic
)ubu
So did you vote Rudd or Slide?
| QUOTE (White Lightning @ Nov 29 2004, 01:16 PM) |
| So did you vote Rudd or Slide? |
The man on the photo!
Btw: Grachan Moncur is still around as well!
Well well well... of course you're right Clem, but then why be so harsh about it!
The two Bauers (whom I both saw last Friday with the great group "Doppelmoppel") certainly belong in any such list (which had to be endless if it would be fair). Albert Mangelsdorff is another exceptional german bone player.
Then there's some nice Italian guys as well, mainly Giancarlo Schiaffini and Sebi Tramontana come to mind. There are other, more mainstream oriented players, too, such as Gianluca Petrella (who can be heard with Enrico Rava's "Easy Living" band).
Thinking of swiss trombone players, the first who comes to mind is Christophe Schweizer. He has live in NYC for some time (but is back in Switzerland now, as I understand), and led several of his own bands, one of them with Billy Hart on drums.
Nils Wogram is yet another incredible German trombone player, who settled in Zurich. He can be heard, for instance, with Swiss drummer Lucas Niggli's group (several CDs on Intakt).
ubu
The two Bauers (whom I both saw last Friday with the great group "Doppelmoppel") certainly belong in any such list (which had to be endless if it would be fair). Albert Mangelsdorff is another exceptional german bone player.
Then there's some nice Italian guys as well, mainly Giancarlo Schiaffini and Sebi Tramontana come to mind. There are other, more mainstream oriented players, too, such as Gianluca Petrella (who can be heard with Enrico Rava's "Easy Living" band).
Thinking of swiss trombone players, the first who comes to mind is Christophe Schweizer. He has live in NYC for some time (but is back in Switzerland now, as I understand), and led several of his own bands, one of them with Billy Hart on drums.
Nils Wogram is yet another incredible German trombone player, who settled in Zurich. He can be heard, for instance, with Swiss drummer Lucas Niggli's group (several CDs on Intakt).
ubu
Clem I completely get your point. I am not sure if it really does look that different over here. I think that our distance to many of these issues is too big for us to really be able to judge it.
However, if we are interested in local/national/general european jazz/music/call-it-what-you-want, I suppose we automatically have a wide open focus of things, of musicians, of styles, we take in account. Of course there are the local hardbop-only freaks here, too, those who didn't notice that Brötzlmeister and his compagnons ARE the mainstream today...
What I try to say is that - let's stay with trombone players - if you're following the careers of people such as Mangelsdorff, the Bauers, Rutherford, Schiaffini, or Wogram (who are very diverse players), you almost necessarily have to stay open-minded and -eared, and that then is part of our way of looking at US jazz/music as well (of course we all look at the US, there's no denying that - that's where the music we love comes from).
ubu
However, if we are interested in local/national/general european jazz/music/call-it-what-you-want, I suppose we automatically have a wide open focus of things, of musicians, of styles, we take in account. Of course there are the local hardbop-only freaks here, too, those who didn't notice that Brötzlmeister and his compagnons ARE the mainstream today...
What I try to say is that - let's stay with trombone players - if you're following the careers of people such as Mangelsdorff, the Bauers, Rutherford, Schiaffini, or Wogram (who are very diverse players), you almost necessarily have to stay open-minded and -eared, and that then is part of our way of looking at US jazz/music as well (of course we all look at the US, there's no denying that - that's where the music we love comes from).
ubu
By the way: people over here often tend to dislike intellectualism in European jazz, as well. A case in point: a fantastic Tomasz Stanko quartet concert I heard somewhen last year (or was it this spring), the audience was really startled, a fantastic band that does not "swing" or play "the blues" in the US/hardbop/traditional way, but have their own conception of time, of melody, of mood (and believe me, in a live setting they don't sound ECMish, not the least bit). Yet the next day all the newspaper chaps knew to write about was how cold and intellectual their music was... I reckoned if they heard a different concert, or if they were biased knowing the CD, or just simply too lazy to listen and/or give a damn.
RAY ANDERSON
My vote goes to Roswell Rudd.
I should have taken more time to create these. I did it kind of haphazardly. I am rather shocked that I missed George Lewis - I just read a feature article about him in Jazz Eduation Journal, but I admit he is someone I don't have any rekkids by. I know he is known for a theoretical book, right? Along the lines of the Slonimsky? But otherwise I plead "ig'nance."
Sorry clem. I'm only 21. Gimme some years - I'll grow.
Sorry clem. I'm only 21. Gimme some years - I'll grow.
You're thinking of George Russell, no?
But George Lewis is a baaaaaaaad mf anyhows.
But George Lewis is a baaaaaaaad mf anyhows.
| QUOTE (JSngry @ Nov 29 2004, 11:21 AM) |
| You're thinking of George Russell, no? But George Lewis is a baaaaaaaad mf anyhows. |
Yeah. Russell. Lydian-Chromatic?
Yep. And it's a lot more than "along the lines of Slominsky".
Not busting your chops, just letting you know.
And along those same lines, you should be aware of Ray Anderson in this category as well. A wildly inconsistent player taste-wise, but he's amazing as often as he is silly.
Not busting your chops, just letting you know.
And along those same lines, you should be aware of Ray Anderson in this category as well. A wildly inconsistent player taste-wise, but he's amazing as often as he is silly.
| QUOTE (JohnS @ Nov 29 2004, 10:26 AM) |
| RAY ANDERSON |
See?
Another vote for Roswell RUDD
| QUOTE (clementine @ Nov 29 2004, 09:29 AM) |
| nice list w/o George Lewis, even if you know there are other "good" ones. |
I was thinking maybe George was kind of young, but I see he was born the same year as me (1952), so he is a junior member of the "over 50" category!!!
| QUOTE (clementine @ Nov 29 2004, 03:10 PM) |
| i dig Julian too ya' know but i LIVE with Bird, Dolphy & Ornette. i hope you do too. |
I've done research on Cannon. I created the account following a long period of listening to him and totally digging him. If I changed my name it would be something trite like Colonel Jazz.
Re: Bird. I feel like I've heard all the (classic) solos and I want more. I don't have the bootleg tapes so I need to hear those solos too. I mean, I can listen to Bird day-in day-out and feel totally inadequate and amazed, which is hopefully the effect his playing has on all of us, as musicians and humans for that matter. How could a man be so great? How could someone create something so wholly original? While on drugs!?!?
I do dig Dolphy and as a saxophonist myself, I totally dig where he was coming from. I've heard him play "inside," and the cat could play both ways equally well. Is it fair to say he was the original "out" alto cat? Besides Ornette? Would people say that Dolphy was a follower of Ornette's ideas or did he have his own philosophical approach?
I love the album that Lonely Woman is on. And the one that Peace is on. I forget cuz I downloaded these in the days of free Audiogalaxy and much of it is mislabeled and out of order.
I also listen to a lot of Johnny Hodges. I have all his rekkids as a leader. My favorite is "Everybody Knows." His sound and articulation were one-of-a-kind.
I am trying to get into Jackie McLean now but often I find him to be awfully repetitive - kind of like Dexter Gordon. Entirely lick-oriented - mostly simplistic licks. I much prefer more original guys like Bird, Cannon, Ornette, Joe Henderson, Wayne, etc. When I hear him playing, I hear a guy channeling Bird, and that's cool but I feel that he often sounds too much like Bird in some ways and too much like Dexter in others and not enough himself. You understand? I dig his political activism though through his more free compositions and the names of his albums.
there is so much to be said.....about saxophonists......
There are so many greats I really can't name a favorite. But I voted for Kuumba Frank Lacy because he's so criminally under-recognized. A really fiery player, and he did some interesting but totally obscure leader work for the Tutu label a while back (which I think is a sub-label of Enja). TONAL WEIGHTS AND BLUE FIRE, despite the title, is not so much out or free but just remarkably good music, closest to freeish bop but that doesn't even begin to capture the range of emotions and styles that Lacy encompasses here. The great Michael Carvin is along on drums, too. You can get this one at Cadence.
I just noticed that there was an over/under 50 poll - assuming Kuumba really is under 50, move these comments mentally to the under 50 thread.
I just noticed that there was an over/under 50 poll - assuming Kuumba really is under 50, move these comments mentally to the under 50 thread.
I voted yesterday.... and now I can´t remember who I voted for! 
That´s what happens with this kind of polls... each day you´d vote for a different musician!
That´s what happens with this kind of polls... each day you´d vote for a different musician!
Conrad Bauer
Bruce Fowler
Bruce Fowler
Albert M
Roswell Rudd
Actually, any cat that still has the tenacity to play jazz trombone after age 50 is okay in my book!
Roswell Rudd
Actually, any cat that still has the tenacity to play jazz trombone after age 50 is okay in my book!
PLEASE - I don't want to sound harsh but these polls started by a youngster without a ton of experience involve some of us and insult some of us. I think all should think a long time before starting a thread of this type.
Personally I was bummed George wasn't on the list and where is Gunter Christmann?
Mister Addict has his heart in the right place, just not enough listening.
soft hearted chuck
Personally I was bummed George wasn't on the list and where is Gunter Christmann?
Mister Addict has his heart in the right place, just not enough listening.
soft hearted chuck
I was just going to let this fade away without commenting any further (and I'm probably too late), but I think I should go ahead and put my $.03 in.
While I do understand the frustration that some have expressed here (and I do agree that too many threads started by relatively inexperienced posters can be a problem... I mean, just visit AAJ once in awhile...), I think some of these reactions are a bit harsh. Not so much Chuck... at least not THIS time.
For one thing, c.a. didn't make the common bbs mistake of polling us on the "greatest" trombone player over 50. So, it's all a matter of perspective, just asking for people's opinions on their own personal favorites. Anybody who starts a poll of this type will: A) slant things toward their own musical taste and experience (and there's NOTHING WRONG with that); and B) leave off LOTS of names that could have (and even perhaps "should" have, although I'd argue that isn't the right way to look at it) been mentioned. NO BIG (FUCKING) WHOOP. Everybody states their opinions, laments the missing names, we all get a bit of information about names we're unfamiliar with (for whatever reason- maybe because we've been asleep, or maybe because we don't like that style of jazz), and then we move on, and hopefully have a nice dinner and a good night's sleep.
I thought c.a. took it all very well, BTW, so he still gets a
from me.
While I do understand the frustration that some have expressed here (and I do agree that too many threads started by relatively inexperienced posters can be a problem... I mean, just visit AAJ once in awhile...), I think some of these reactions are a bit harsh. Not so much Chuck... at least not THIS time.
For one thing, c.a. didn't make the common bbs mistake of polling us on the "greatest" trombone player over 50. So, it's all a matter of perspective, just asking for people's opinions on their own personal favorites. Anybody who starts a poll of this type will: A) slant things toward their own musical taste and experience (and there's NOTHING WRONG with that); and B) leave off LOTS of names that could have (and even perhaps "should" have, although I'd argue that isn't the right way to look at it) been mentioned. NO BIG (FUCKING) WHOOP. Everybody states their opinions, laments the missing names, we all get a bit of information about names we're unfamiliar with (for whatever reason- maybe because we've been asleep, or maybe because we don't like that style of jazz), and then we move on, and hopefully have a nice dinner and a good night's sleep.I thought c.a. took it all very well, BTW, so he still gets a
from me.
I tend to "rewrite" the question in these things in my mind to "who's your favorite among these artists" rather than who's your favorite period. Saves wear and tear on the heart and all. That said, I must admit I had to pick 'other' this time around...
This is my first (and only) response to the neophyte thread-starting polls of cannonball-addict: COULD YOU COOL IT, DUDE?
Just get some recent issues of DownBeat with the critics and readers poll results. You'll have all your answers at your fingertips without bugging the rest of us.
Just get some recent issues of DownBeat with the critics and readers poll results. You'll have all your answers at your fingertips without bugging the rest of us.
I'm with Jim R. I think if you look at Cannonball Addict's posts it's clear he's young and enthusiastic, not trying to denigrate any players or anything. So OK, he got a little carried away, but I think most of the veterans here are able to take these types of threads and educate everyone else, putting a little more meat on the bones of an otherwise potentially bankrupt line of discussion.
While I could also do without any more poll threads for a while, it seems to me the best reaction is either to add something deeper to the discussion or simply ignore them, not make a big deal about it.
While I could also do without any more poll threads for a while, it seems to me the best reaction is either to add something deeper to the discussion or simply ignore them, not make a big deal about it.
Agreed but you have to wonder when he comes up with a line like this: "I am trying to get into Jackie McLean now but often I find him to be awfully repetitive - kind of like Dexter Gordon. Entirely lick-oriented - mostly simplistic licks."
Well...yes, I can't say I even remotely agree with him on comments like that, and I personally think they betray a lack of deeper insight about the music. But then again, that may just be how he hears it right now, honestly. The way I look at it, he'll either a) be mortified some day when he's listened more and looks back on what he said or b) always feel that way (too bad, definitely HIS loss!).
Either way I have to admire him for not becoming a "dittohead" in response to the pasting he'll take around here!
Either way I have to admire him for not becoming a "dittohead" in response to the pasting he'll take around here!
My post was meant to be constructive, not a flame.
Actually I didn't take your comments as non-constructive at all Chuck - sorry, I think in reading it back my post was not very clear. I was making blanket statements about multiple posts, without enough precision.
Anyway, I just meant to say I am at least glad to see someone fired up about some good music. I would hate for him to stop contributing (and in the process, lose out on learning - heck, I know how much I have personally learned from such discussions over the past 7-8 years myself on the old BN boards and now here) because he felt some people were overly critical in their responses to his posts. I'm probably over-reacting, though. He seems to be taking it in the right spirit.
Anyway, I just meant to say I am at least glad to see someone fired up about some good music. I would hate for him to stop contributing (and in the process, lose out on learning - heck, I know how much I have personally learned from such discussions over the past 7-8 years myself on the old BN boards and now here) because he felt some people were overly critical in their responses to his posts. I'm probably over-reacting, though. He seems to be taking it in the right spirit.
I hear you, Chuck. My post followed yours because we see this slightly differently, but the real motivation for me came from some of the other posts. I just don't get all the ire over something like this.
If people are "bugged" by these polls, there's always the option of not pointing and not clicking. I'd prefer to think that there's always the potential for something worthwhile to be found inside.
If people are "bugged" by these polls, there's always the option of not pointing and not clicking. I'd prefer to think that there's always the potential for something worthwhile to be found inside.
It was a toss-up for me between Rudd and Other... Moncur, Mangelsdorff, Christmann, Lewis, Rutherford et alia ... does Vinko Globokar still play or does he just compose now? Can't remember. So many boners, so little time to hear them all.
| QUOTE (clifford_thornton @ Dec 5 2004, 10:45 PM) |
| So many boners, so little time to hear them all. |
I'm shocked; there are some lines even I won't touch...
Prick up your ears!
Booiingggg!
| QUOTE (DrJ @ Dec 5 2004, 10:37 PM) |
| I'm with Jim R. I think if you look at Cannonball Addict's posts it's clear he's young and enthusiastic, not trying to denigrate any players or anything. So OK, he got a little carried away, but I think most of the veterans here are able to take these types of threads and educate everyone else, putting a little more meat on the bones of an otherwise potentially bankrupt line of discussion. While I could also do without any more poll threads for a while, it seems to me the best reaction is either to add something deeper to the discussion or simply ignore them, not make a big deal about it. |
This is exactly what I'm trying to do. Rather than get mad - say who you think other should be. The goddamn thing only lets me put ten people. In some senses, I like having the ability to control who is on the list at the beginning because it gives me a way to see what other people think of the people I would put in my top ten.
I forget who said it, but they were right when they said polls are bound to be based on the pollster's preferences. I have listened to what I have listened to. I wanted to know more. I wanted to do a poll. I couldn't have done one that had 10 choices, all being "other."
It is interesting and informative for me to hear what others on the board think of the field of trombone players that I laid out in MY poll (i.e. if forced to choose from the ones listed, I would choose X).
matt
P.S. Not that this is in the least bit related to trombone players, but to those who doubt my ears, I took some of your criticisms and dismissals to heart and decided to listen a little more to Dexter. In all honesty, I only had one CD - GO." I was stupidly (yes I know) basing my entire opinion of the guy on that one CD. Needless to say I don't like his playing on that one CD. So I took a bus ride to the local LP emporiums called Jerry's Records and bought a Dexter Gordon LP called Sophisticated Giant. I am grooving to it right now. I am thinking somewhat differently already. I really like his soprano playing on it. AND it has Mr. Bobby Hutcherson, whom I also condemned. I was trying to find something good by him but they only had some horrible stuff that looked terrible so I decided on some Donald Byrd with Gigi Gryce and Pepper Adams.
I don't mean this criticism but Dexter considered Go a classic but I know other listeners don't necessarily feel the same way. Blue Note put out a two cd set called The Classic Blue Note Recordings, Blue Note 80658 (catalogue number 73243 5 80658 2 4). That will give you a taste of Blue Note Dexter. You may also want to check out some of his SteepleChase work, mostly live but good nonetheless. But you may want to start with The Classic Blue Note recordings. It's quite a handy two cd set.
just play Cheesecake 50 times in a row.
| QUOTE (couw @ Dec 9 2004, 05:13 PM) |
| just play Cheesecake 50 times in a row. |
Ahh, tongue in cheek. Probably that's where Dex's would have been if he had played it 50 times in a row.
| QUOTE (Brad @ Dec 9 2004, 11:24 AM) |
| I don't mean this criticism but Dexter considered Go a classic but I know other listeners don't necessarily feel the same way. Blue Note put out a two cd set called The Classic Blue Note Recordings, Blue Note 80658 (catalogue number 73243 5 80658 2 4). That will give you a taste of Blue Note Dexter. You may also want to check out some of his SteepleChase work, mostly live but good nonetheless. But you may want to start with The Classic Blue Note recordings. It's quite a handy two cd set. |
I was going back over this thread. I picked up a box set called. Dexter Gordon: The Complete Blue Note 60's Sessions (6 discs) plus a nice thick booklet. It's very interesting and informative. I still ache at his articulations but his ideas are much broader on the whole than they are on GO.
I will be listening to this for a few weeks and let it sink in. Then we'll see. There's certainly a great many number of tunes on here that I know and love other renditions I've heard.
matt
I also picked up one I really dig. It is an LP reissue from 1995 called "Dexter Gordon - Master Takes The Savoy Recordings with Bud Powell Fats Navarro & Tadd Dameron." He doesn't sound anything like he does on the 60s stuff. His phrasing is much smoother. He sounds like Bird on the tenor, not as convincing as Sonny Stitt though.
matt
matt
I tend to agree about Dexter, whose playing I've never found interesting - depended, a bit, also, on how stoned he was at a particular session - Jackie McLean, on the other hand is a brilliant player. But as for trombone players, I don't care how dead he is, I'm going to put JIMMY KNEPPER in here - a great player, sweetheart of a guy, and everything else -
This thread makes me relise just how little I know about trombonists, but i picked my favorite one, Curtis Fuller.
| QUOTE (Jazz Kat @ Mar 22 2005, 03:56 PM) |
| This thread makes me relise just how little I know about trombonists, but i picked my favorite one, Curtis Fuller. |
It was the same for me Jazz Kat until I discovered Woody Herman and started buying Woody Herman records/CDs left and right. You can learn so much of jazz' history be listening to this band which still exists today under the direction of saxophonist and Berklee professor Frank Tiberi.
let's not forget Eddie Bert -
Oh, who's that other guy, J.J Johnson.
well, he's dead, but that's OK -
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