I've been listening to In the Court of the Crimson King a lot since yesterday; I feel like my appreciation for this album grows with each listen. One of the (flawed) masterpieces of the late 60s. Probably Greg Lake's best performance on vocals, and he offers some very nice bass playing. Ian McDonald's flute playing is quite nice. Michael Giles's drumming is incredible. Fripp's guitar playing is nice though not quite as distinctive as it would be 3 or 4 years later.

As far as the songs -- it's easy to understand why it turned so many heads 36 years ago, because the music is really powerful. "21st Century Schizoid Man" is just a terrific merger of free jazz and heavy metal -- also, an unusual case of Mingus's clear influence on rock'n'roll. "I Talk to the Wind" -- beautiful flute, very nice vocals by Lake, takes the Moody Blues thing and adds a lot of depth. "Epitaph" is powerful, particularly when it builds up to that mellotron crescendo at the end of the verse. Side 2 is weaker -- as I've listened to more and more jazz, my comprehension of the lengthy collective improvisation on "Moonchild" has improved but it's still pretty weak to these ears. "In the Court of the Crimson King" is quite powerful, but far too long and repetitive. (Nice interludes, though.)

Guy

It may be one of the earliest examples of heavy metal.

Mingus? How?

mingus --> davy graham --> bert jansch --> jimmy page et al

when i have more time i'll start a davy graham thread but he is, suffice to say, one of THEE guitar greats & an early, brilliant exponent of expanding the range of, arranging for acoustic guitar. skip the first album but most everything after that is mindblowing (minus the goddamn beatles covers in the later '60s).

some tunes davy did: "better git it in your soul" (solo, in 1964), "blue monk," "grooveyard," "buhaina chant," etc. (& that's just for starters.)

xxc

I didn't know Davy Graham played acoustic guitar in King Crimson.

Good thread for me because I've been thinking of starting to buy some KC cds. I have a japanesse import of "In the Court" but the sound is muffled. Are the 30th anniversary remasters the way to go?

do you even know davy graham by his art in its time or did someone show you dadgad & you thought huh, cool, or amazing, or it's not for me... guy's point is a good one & i gave but one clear example. in fact, there's a way bigger Mingus influence in quite a bit of mid-'60s to mid-'70s ROCK than is commonly recognized, esp. by those weened on the pop(ular) consensus-- again, when i have time (or you cough up my mentor fee, gracias) but... (a lot comes back at us from the brits but not all by a long shot.)

folk, blues & beyond--

xxc

That R&Bish riffing over a fast 6/8 rhythm reminds me a lot of "Better Git It in Your Soul", though once it moves to the solo section it's more Trane+Elvin. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I should have phrased it as "an unusual case of Mingus directly influencing a rock song".

Guy

The last time I experienced Crimson in concert was a hit by the double trio version. Afterwards, I felt as if the molecular structure of my being had been altered from the criss crossing assault of frequencies from amplified string instruments. I floated home as if in out-of-body flight.

At least it's a tune I'm familiar with.

Hm...I never made the connection. Interesting thought though.

Not an original thought, though -- I think Ed Macan brings it up briefly and offhandedly in Rocking the Classics.

Guy

i was trying to get into the "islands" band recently but have not liked it as much as i hoped for.
i checked out the live at summit studios DGM release. king crimson even does sort of a version of "the creator has a master plan". a lengthy jam has an unfortunate cut in it, which bothered me.
ok stuff-i should check out more. this was the band with ian wallace on drums and mel collins and boz burrell. i wish keith tippett had stayed around to play some live shows.
i don't like that on most live releases they put out i see songs i don't like (such as "the devil's triangle-mars" stuff) whcih gets a little old to me.
i had just had surgery when i got the great deciever box set so i was high on percosets for a week or two and that box set really blew my mind. this was another incarnation where sometimes i don't like the songs they repeated (though i do like some fluffy ones-i think "exiles" for instance, is very nice) but the improv is really interesting. hard rock improv....

I don't think Crimson became a decent song-writing band (with a few exceptions) until Adrian Belew joined. As far as the Islands band -- I have a few of their live CDs and will give them a spin next week. My recollection is that they sounded better live than in the studio. "Sailor's Tale" is awesome. Out of the three early 70s "orphan" albums I think Lizard is the best, and quite underrated.

Guy

don't forget to check out the new download site, DGM live. there are some shows available there only (no KCCC CDs for these yet), including 2 from the Islands era. as great as the early years are (and I agree with the praise for the debut album), whatever they are doing NOW (or next, in the current situation, as they are on hiatus for 2 years) is most interesting to me

The Islands band put out what had to be the second-worst recorded live album ever released by a major label, 'Earthbound' (the worst, of course, is 'The Beatles Live at the Hollywood Bowl'). Do any of the subesquent remasters really make much difference on 'Earthbound'? 'In the Wake of Poseidon' was interesting because it was sort of a rerun of 'Court' done more purely Frippishly. I loved the Wetton/Bruford/Corss/Muir version of the group. The Belew version was a totally different group to me, not an extension of what came before.

I stopped paying attention after the Construkction of Kcrap.

Guy

Guy - Do yourself a favor and check out The Power to Believe (it's $5.99 at yourmusic.com). It's GREAT!

I'd never heard KC before "Court". I just bought it cuz I liked the cover. It has been and remains one of my all time favorite albums. I did buy the 30th anniversary edition when it first came out and it sounds fine to me. I still have the original LP, but it's been played so many times, I'd hate to think what it sounds like now.

The transition between "21st Schizoid Man" and "I Talk To The Wind" still jars my tiny brain even after all these years. One of the truly great segues. I still remember the first time I ever listened to this album. I was sitting in a window in my dorm room on a sunny, spring afternoon wondering where they would go after a wallbanger like "Schizoid" and then, wow!...go figure.

Those were the days. I admit to having several, shall we say, heavily medicated experiences circa 1969/70 that wound up with this music as the soundtrack. Suffice to say, this one is rather firmly etched in my consciousness.

Agree 1000% with the comments about drummer Michael Giles. Just train your earborne isolated camera on him for awhile and you'll be amazed. Just make sure there's nothing right below your jaw, so when it drops open involuntarily, you won't hurt yourself.

Up over and out.

I was curious about the sound of the live recordings by the band with Boz, Collins and Wallace

I had the original Earthbound LP - and the sound was awful

fwiw - I like the Larks Tongue/Starless/Red incarnation(s) far more than the earlier or later line-ups.

I love "The Breat Deceiver) 4 CD box from 73-74

I saw them live in 1981 with Belew, Levin and Bruford - it was decent - but lacking the power and the glory of the mid-70's band - and they only did two tunes from the glory days - Larks Tongue - part 2 and Red

and they played Larks Tongue Part 2 - twice the second time as an encore

not hearing Fracture in place of it was big letdown at the time - I mean - Fracture is pretty much what the best Crimso was all about - the power and the glory

It sounds a bit better with the reissue of 2002 (I think that's the year) but it just never will sound that good given the way it was recorded.

If you go to King Crimson's Discipline Global Mobile site, click "Shop" and enter Boz Burrell in the search box it will give you a list of live discs that feature him. At the moment they have sold out of copies of Earthbound.

I have the Detroit KCCC and it sounds better. The bluesy version of "In The Court Of The Crimson King" is wildly different than the studio version.

Jacksonville is a fairly rough recording but I'm able to tolerate it as it has my favorite version of "Ladies Of The Road." Or at last a darn good one.



I like it better than earlier line-ups (most of the time) though not always more than later ones. It all depends on my mood.

Are you familiar with the Elephant-Talk site? It's a fan based site of many things Crim. If you click on "Releases - KC" near the bottom right of the navigation bar on the bottom of the page you'll bring up a list of albums. There are reviews by fans, some better than others but sometimes sound quality is mentioned. I've used it a lot for consdering KCCC releases. The site may be dying off though as the later releases aren't reviewed.

Ladies of the Road is a good live compilation of the Islands band. Disc one is a collection from the Club releases, and disc 2 is a compilation of guitar and saxophone solos from Schizoid Man performed by that band

To add to our discussion of King Crimson's (obvious) jazz roots, I was looking through the Epitaph booklet and found the little bios EG* (KC's management) wrote for the band members back in 1969, presumably for promotional purposes.







Judging by the jazz names these guys are dropping, they had some pretty hip music collections. (How many people were listening to John McLaughlin before 1970?) McDonald's choice of Handy and Dolphy is somewhat suggestive given the Mingus connection.

Guy

I think that JMcL was a session musican before becoming known as a Jazz musican. Lots of people would have heard him on the radio and if you into Jazz in London in the late '60s, you would have known who he was.

McLaughlin played in the Graham Bond Orgainzation in '63with Jack Bruce, Ginger Baker, and Dick Heckstall-Smith, and recorded 'Things We Like' with Jack Bruce. He also had worked with Alexis Korner,a nd recorded with John Surman prior to this time. So he was pretty well known in musical circles in England already, and certainly Fripp would have been well aware of him.

Nevertheless, JMcL was very much a "musician's musician" at this point, even in Britain.

Guy

I recall reading an interview of JML by Fripp, where Fripp told JML that he didn't listen to his music anymore because he didn't want to be too heavily influenced by what JML was doing.

Here's a link.

A question for those more knowledgeable about Crimson -- I have the May 11, 1971 concert with Fripp, Collins, Burrell and Wallace at Plymouth Guildhall. Did this predate the recording of Islands?

Answer: According to the press clippings in the 30th anniversary reissue of Islands, recording for the album was completed in September or October of 1971. The album was issued in December.

Guy

I love Cat Food.

That's an insane tune!

Another King Crimson thread.

And the Robert Fripp thread.











edited to add 'nother thread.

I think Annie Ross covered it.

First had the KC version on an EG compilation...with Eno's Seven Deadly Sins, of which I was also quite fond.

'Islands' is still my favourite KC studio recording (closely followed by Lizard). I've enjoyed the live ones from that era too.

In some respects I owe those two albums (bought in in 1971 and 1972) for attuning my ear to jazz - my initial jazz purchases were follow ups to Tippett, Charig etc.

I saw the Wetton/Muir/Cross/Bruford KS in late '72 (my first concert !) and the Muir-less band twice in '73. Stunning concerts.

'The Great Deceiver' is a marvellous way of getting into the '73-4 sound world. A cheaper (but equally glorious) way is 'The Nightwatch.'

i have all KC except islands and lizard-- you might think its due to those getting more negitive reviews compared to the others-- however i can assure you that it is just by happenstance that i havent picked these up yet. what is the band like with boz burrell on bass?

annie ross did not cover "cat food"- are you joking?!?

ItCoKC

Anyone seeking a copy of 'Groon' (the B-side of 'Cat Food') who doesn't want to shell out on the most recent version of 'In the Wake of Poseidon' (which is otherwise identical to the previous version without the single tracks) might be interested in this recent release:



A marvellous compilation from Island's glory years in the late 60s/early 70s:

1. Supernatural Fairy Tales - Art
2. Paper Sun - Traffic
3. Harpsichord Shuffle - Wynder K. Frog
4. Rainbow Chaser - Nirvana
5. Pearly Queen - Tramline
6. Sunshine Help Me - Spooky Tooth
7. Dusty - Martyn, John
8. Meet On The Ledge - Fairport Convention
9. Song For Jeffrey - Jethro Tull
10. Carpenter - Clouds
11. I Keep Singing That Same Song - Heavy Jelly
12. Black Mass - White Noise
13. Over The Green Hills - Free
14. Worry - Free
15. Giants - Quintessence
16. Queen Of Scots - Amazing Blondel
17. Feelin' Alright - Traffic
18. Sing Me A Song That I Know So Well - Blodwyn Pig
19. Sailors Life - Fairport Convention

Disc: 2
1. New Day Yesterday - Jethro Tull
2. No Time To Live - Traffic
3. Three Hours - Drake, Nick
4. Lost In My Dream - Spooky Tooth
5. Stormbringer - John & Beverley Martyn
6. Strangely Strange But Oddly Normal - Dr. Strangely Strange
7. Notting Hill Gate - Quintessence
8. Banks Of the Nile - Fotheringay
9. Wild World - Cat Stevens
10. Painted Chariot - Incredible String Band
11. Cat Food - King Crimson
12. Groon - King Crimson
13. Northstar Grassman And The Ravens - Sandy Denny
14. Suite In C - McDonald & Giles
15. Siege Of Yaddlethorpe - Amazing Blondel

Disc: 3
1. Knife Edge - Emerson Lake & Palmer
2. Thunderbuck Ram - Mott The Hoople
3. Northern Sky - Nick Drake
4. Thru The Night - Alan Bown
5. Dark Dance - Robin Williamson,
6. I Am The Walrus - Spooky Tooth
7. Glistening Glyndebourne - John Martyn
8. Fire And Water - Free
9. See My Way - Blodwyn Pig
10. See The World (Through My Eyes) - Vinegar Joe
11. Peace Train - Cat Stevens
12. Watercolour Days - Clouds
13. Low Spark Of The High Heeled Boys - Traffic
14. Song For Suzie - Heads Hands & Feet

Some classic stuff; some interesting oddities; some pretty dreadful oddities!

Some of those bands I haven't heard of in years! The Amazing Blondel???

I suspect most were on very different labels in the US.

In the UK Island had a very distinctive image associated with these musicians who ranged from Brit-blues through psychedelia to folk-rock.

That pink Island logo that used to be on the centre of the discs has a powerful nostalgic pull.

that is bizzare, bev

I was leafing through the liner notes to Larks' Tongues in Aspic and found this bizarre little item among the press clippings.

From the June 1973 issue of Cosmopolitan:

there is a new download available at DGM live. Its the final show from the Power to Believe Tour, Nov 14 2003 in Kingston, NY. Double disc, and it's HEAVY!!

Ooooooooooo, thank you (I think ) for the warning. And here I was intending to buy one of the soundscapes next.

By the way, everything you said about Asbury '74 was true. And even more. It's earth shattering stuff. I hope Bev and all other fans of this era are able to download it.

I like the King Crimson that I've heard. Unfortunately I don't know enough to tell you what era it has been from. Any suggestions as to where I should start? Hopefully many of you are familiar enough with my taste in music.

Thanks!

yes, that show is one of the very best that I have heard. It seems very clear to me that they were saving this one and a few of the others (like the Buenos Aires 1994 show or the Zoom club show from 1972) to launch this web site with the best of the best, or else these would have been released as KCCC discs a long time ago.

You mean Zoom Club '71? (Zoom '72 is a KCCC.)

Ah, so do you rate Zoom '71 as being better than the '71 KCCCs that are available? (I only have Detroit of those available.)

Also (as we're back in the Kcorner and not specifically talking about the live downloads) I still don't have the '74 Mainz or the '74 Heidelberg KCCCs. For no really good reason I intend to pick up the Mainz ahead of Heidelberg (I like to mix eras with orders, so one will at least have to wait.) Any opinions about these releases (from anyone.)

I have everything else live from '73-'74 that has been officially pressed and while part of me worries about getting too obsessive, the other part says "why not?" (I've got a long way to go to match my Dead or Miles collections.)

Mainz is probably the better show, but Heidelberg is close to it, the only problem being the shortened Fracture (the tape ran out 3 min in). You really need them both! Actually, when it comes to that era of Crimson, you really do need to hear it all!! But the improvs on Heidleberg may be better than those on Mainz. Tough call, really

I was referring to the Zoom shows from 1971 (the band that did Islands). I haven't heard all of this band's shows to be able to compare, but the Summit Studios KCCC has the most interesting jams, while these Zoom shows have more of a song based set list (they do Get Thy Bearings, Crimson King and others that they later dropped)

Thanks! I've come to the same conclusion regarding the '74s, I just needed a nudge.

As far as KCCCs I have (by year, not #):

71 - Detroit
72 - Jacksonville
72 - Summit Studios
72 - Beat Club
74 - Central Park
95 - Broadway
98 - P4 in SF
01 - Nashville

For my next order I am going to get one of the '74s, Zoom Club '72 and probably one more. I was leaning towards something more modern ('81 onward) but honestly I'm open to anything old or new. For live stuff from the '81-'84 band I have Absent Lovers & the DVD. I'm starting to think that isn't enough.

Any club KCCCs that I don't own that you especially love? At this point I'm quite the Crimslut as I enjoy all eras.

Pick up In the Court of the Crimson King, Larks' Tongues in Aspic (or Red), and Discipline. Those should give you a nice introduction into the group's 3 most important periods.

Guy

I have the above, and also:

71 - Plymouth Guildhall (one of the first gigs by the Islands band)
81 - Moles Club
82 - Cape D'Agde or however you spell it
94 - Vrooom Sessions

Thanks Guy. I was starting to wonder how many "ignore" lists I was on!

If you wanted a sampling of what the various incarnations sound like live Cirkus-The Young Person's Guide To King Crimson Live is a great way to go. It might be tough to find and it currently is sold out at Discipline Global, but I find it has terrific sequencing and I still play it even though I now have many discs of full/fuller shows from various eras.