7/4

Evan Parker

324 posts in this topic

26 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

Discourses of hate and/or violence are one thing (Shepp? Gayle?); paranoid conspiracy theories without those things are a bit less harmful. 

Actually...rhetorical safety valve vs inciting actual death-inducing behaviors...you tell me which is more harmful.

No absolutes on any of this outside of contexts. And looks like for all of Shepp's and Gayle's "discourses", things are still waiting to change, whereas, how many dead people from COVID-denialism? How about a damn near violent overthrow of the US Government (and next time they're coming with guns, they say!?

This false equivalency stuff is a runaway train of jet-fuled suicide, there's some context for your ass.

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8 hours ago, David Ayers said:

 Discourses of hate and/or violence are one thing (Shepp? Gayle?)

What's Shepp's choice of discourse?

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5 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

What's Shepp's choice of discourse?

He is said to have joined in with Jones/Baraka in his anti Semitic period. They are reported as doing anti-Semitic street agitation together. 

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I can safely say I've bought my last Evan Parker album. As a continental European, I'm tired of being insulted and threatened by brexit-tards, especially the really crazy, mendacious ones. Evan can stuff his soprano where the sun don't shine.

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, erwbol said:

Evan can stuff his soprano where the sun don't shine.

No doubt he will develop some exciting new circular breathing techniques. It might liven up the next solo release.

54 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

He is said to have joined in with Jones/Baraka in his anti Semitic period. They are reported as doing anti-Semitic street agitation together. 

Oh. Thanks. I wish I didn't know that. It shows you should be careful what questions you ask.

Edit: It still won't make me throw out my Shepps though. I still don't understand getting upset by a musician's views as long as it doesn't come across in the music. Parker remains safe in my house, next to the Soft Machines and the rest. 

Edited by Rabshakeh

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The guy has his views, however wacky they might be. He is voicing them from time to time (to a grand worldwide audience of maybe 500 people). The Wire says this makes him "selfish and irresponsible"? How is that? Who is he supposed to be responsible to? Why can't he be selfish? He is not a government official, he does not formulate public policy, his views have no implications. As far as I am concerned, Evan Parker can say whatever the fuck he wants.     

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Posted (edited)

Agreed. He's a musician, not a politician or a pamphleteer. He's not writing songs about how Brexit is great, like Van Morrison is about his views.  If you didn't read about his personal views you could listen to his music for 100 years and remain none the wiser. 

Edited by Rabshakeh

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Of course retards have freedom of speech. I'm just not into financing their soapboxes.

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16 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Oh. Thanks. I wish I didn't know that. It shows you should be careful what questions you ask.

Kofsky mentions the Shepp/Baraka leafleting  in his Black Nationalism/John Coltrane book, and I have always known it, but I don’t know where you’d look for full information. 

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6 minutes ago, erwbol said:

Of course retards have freedom of speech. I'm just not into financing their soapboxes.

I'm all in agreement, but Parker is not a UKIP spokesperson! He has barely publicised his views on Brexit. 

Just now, David Ayers said:

Kofsky mentions the Shepp/Baraka leafleting  in his Black Nationalism/John Coltrane book, and I have always known it, but I don’t know where you’d look for full information. 

Thanks. I have it on my shelf and will have a look. 

But, again, Shepp is not a high profile anti-Semite using his fame to publish his beliefs (Baraka might be a different story). It's not even something you can find easily from a Google search.

It isn't the old Celine/Pound conundrum of whether you should or shouldn't enjoy hateful art, because hateful content in either Shepp's or Parker's work is lacking. 

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11 minutes ago, erwbol said:

Of course retards have freedom of speech. I'm just not into financing their soapboxes.

Is it possible to disagree with somebody without calling him / her a retard?  

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12 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Is it possible to disagree with somebody without calling him / her a retard?  

Like disagreeing with an intelligent design advocate about natural selection and not considering/calling them a retard? Or a flat earther? No.

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38 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

The guy has his views, however wacky they might be. He is voicing them from time to time (to a grand worldwide audience of maybe 500 people). The Wire says this makes him "selfish and irresponsible"? How is that? Who is he supposed to be responsible to? Why can't he be selfish? He is not a government official, he does not formulate public policy, his views have no implications. As far as I am concerned, Evan Parker can say whatever the fuck he wants.     

Yes, he can. Just as Tony Herrington has the right to express his opinion on Evan's views and the way in which they are expressed.

I think you may be underestimating Evan's position as a "Grand Old Man". Few other musicians (in this, admittedly, small world of free jazz) would cause so much disappointment and dismay with such statements. When I read the Wire piece, it is mainly about that, not about Evan's freedom of speech (which TH obviously acknowledges).

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Grand Old Fish of his tiny pond he might be, but I can't believe there is anyone who is having their heads turned by what he is saying, particularly given that he is not even saying it directly.

The Wire's article criticising him is doing more to publish those views than Parker himself is.

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Posted (edited)

I’m long familiar with these topics (as a professional scholar) re. e.g. Pound et al. I’m not going to set out my stall on that here.

 

Anyone can decide whether and how to engage with any artist based on feeling about their opinion. In the case of EP, maybe some are disappointed that their assumptions about the leftist nature of this sub-genre are not confirmed. Not only does it not surprise me, but it is of a piece with a strain of autodidacticism found in other artists of that generation (think ley lines, Wilhelm Reich, LSD, Ron Hubbard, etc. etc.). So - yeah. 

 

EP’s my neighbor, so I’m not going to bale on him. 

Edited by David Ayers

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8 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

I’m long familiar with these topics (as a professional scholar) re. e.g. Pound et al. I’m not going to set out my stall on that here.

Appeal to authority? Lame.

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

Not only does it not surprise me, but it is of a piece with a strain of autodidacticism found in other artists of that generation (think ley lines, Wilhelm Reich, LSD, Ron Hubbard, etc. etc.).

This is an interesting take. I have often wondered with Braxton, for example, whether his curious terminology is a result of his having had to put everything together for himself. Some of the "scholarship" that Braxton refers to and leans upon is definitely on the outlying edges, albeit with Braxton it feeds back to an intriguing and unique humanist viewpoint, rather than something unpleasant. 

But Evan Parker is hardly an autodidact. I thought he studied biology at Birmingham Uni. 

Also, after the reference to Ezra Pound it took me a minute to puzzle out which "EP" you meant.

Edited by Rabshakeh

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11 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

This is an interesting take. I have often wondered with Braxton, for example, whether his curious terminology is a result of his having had to put everything together for himself. Some of the "scholarship" that Braxton refers to and leans upon is definitely on the outlying edges, albeit with Braxton it feeds back to an intriguing and unique humanist viewpoint, rather than something unpleasant. 

I haven't read Braxton's own writings beyond liner notes, but despite the dense language, he is no Judith Butler. His musical system(s) see to that.

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2 minutes ago, erwbol said:

I haven't read Braxton's own writings beyond liner notes, but despite the dense language, he is no Judith Butler. His musical system(s) see to that.

What do you mean? Is Judith Butler notoriously wordy? I have never read Butler's work. 

Braxton is not so much wordy as idiosyncratic, I think. 

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1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Grand Old Fish of his tiny pond he might be, but I can't believe there is anyone who is having their heads turned by what he is saying, particularly given that he is not even saying it directly.

The Wire's article criticising him is doing more to publish those views than Parker himself is.

No heads turned? Then why are we discussing it here? In fact it was even you who brought it to the attention here with your initial post about his piece for Sons d'hiver.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, erwbol said:

Appeal to authority? Lame.

 

I think what I’m saying is that I’m used to deciding for myself how and whether to deal with this kind of thing, and that everyone can decide for themselves. 

 

Re. counter-cultural idiosyncrasies, I remember when I was growing up that Thor Heyerdahl and Erich von Däniken were common talking-points and seemed not easily distinguishable. 

 

Edited by David Ayers

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6 minutes ago, corto maltese said:

No heads turned? Then why are we discussing it here? In fact it was even you who brought it to the attention here with your initial post about his piece for Sons d'hiver.

Yes, but no-one is seriously questioning whether he might be right.

At least, I hope not.

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11 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

What do you mean? Is Judith Butler notoriously wordy? I have never read Butler's work. 

Postmodern verbal diarrhea without substance.

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3 minutes ago, erwbol said:

Postmodern verbal diarrhea without substance.

Ha ha. I see.

A tasty word salad.

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