Cliff Englewood

Grant Green: "Iron City"

112 posts in this topic

Gene Ludwig's manager called?

And this guy sold the tape to Joe Fields based on Patton but can't remember who was at the organ?

Dude, I have yet to know a manager who doesn't know where the dope is. It's a useful skill set, if not for your client, as a way to leverage favor with Strangers In Town.

Gene Ludwig could play, but his name would not get a tape sold to Joe Fields  Would you cop to selling a tape with at least one knowingly incorrect player listed?

Somebody paid somebody. Dope ain't free. But Gene Ludwig's manager called and knew that Grant need to cop, hey, can we get a record made here?

Where was Gene Ludwig On This Day In History?

Btw - a while back, I picked up Gene Ludwig's Mainstream album, and liked it pretty well, even though it's pretty overtly Jimmy Smith-is. But that was the marketplace then, and judgements cannot meaningfully be made on such scant and skewed evidence.

But this local/dope money scenario...the plot potentially thickens now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, bertrand said:

Let's pretend it was recorded on 1/18/65 and there was a union contract. Are you suggesting said contract could be located?

I am sure it was a scab session, though. I agree that it would have been preferable to use code language, e.g. 'Grant needed some walking around money'. Where he was walking to with the money is none of my business.

Indeed, the way this story has been framed by Travis Klein, from the info he has disclosed, is not very respectful to say the least. 

Also, it seems the timeframe coincides with the presumed end of Grant's first contract (or working relationship) with Blue Note and his commencement of a short lived series of recordings for Verve. Who knows what Grant's status was at the point of the recording. Then also, Klein states it was supposedly Gene Ludwig's manager who first approached him to do an opportunistic session? 

I also remember raising the idea of the recording being part of the lost Verve sessions, however it was pointed out that the recording is clearly not a 'Van Gelder' studio production, so most likely Travis Klein's version of the story is based in some fact.

However, the recently released Oil Can Harry's recording liners suggest Grant was in a similar situation in the mid 70's, coming out of contract with Blue Note and Cuscuna saying the Oil Can Harry's recordings were being used at the time as a demonstration record so to speak, to secure another contract (according to Cuscuna). Who's to say the Iron City session wasn't for some such similar end? Probably wasn't, but just throwing around some possible scenarios to take away from the distastefully stereotypical Klein story of the session, that has been un-tactfully thrown out into the margins of the public domain.  

Also interesting, that one of the 'back in the day' adverts shown upthread, refers to Grant as 'Prestige' recording artist? Perhaps Grant was headed for Prestige, or had a hand shake agreement in place, which then became Verve all of a sudden.

Edited by robertoart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible Gene Ludwig's manager is still around?

The plot is definitely thickening...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://youtu.be/aUXnz3ybUf8

 

What would be a hoot is if neither John Patton, Larry Young, nor Ben Dixon are actually on this record! What if it's Grant doing a dope money date with Gene Ludwig and Randy Geledpie?

Or what if that's not even Grant? What if the whole thing was a Gene Ludwig trio date that got sold to Joe Fields?

I am ROTFLMFAO thinking about this, because Klein's story reeks of Shady Grady to one degree or another. You just don't tell a story like that, LIKE that, unless you are either senile or covering *something* up.

Dead men tell no tales, but live ones best be careful, lest the dead ones start talking. :g

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the organ so many shades of homogenous that a lifetime of serious listeners can't categorically distinguish an albums worth of material between John Patton and Larry Young lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The organ can be anything it's player wills it to be! It's got stops and shit! And I don't want to put TOO much credence in a Gene Ludwig Theory, but...he would not be the first player who had a gig style and the some whole other stuff stored away. Ludwig, being a white guy playing hardcore black gigs might well have loved a chance to step out of his Jimmy Smith bag under a shadow of anonymity. You drop that Larry Young shit on a Sonny Story gig???? How much margin of error do you have, even if you're Larry Young? Art AND Commerce, and Sonny Stitt (or, apparently, Grant Green ) could get an organ player who would play the gig.

Too bad that nobody asked Ben Dixon if HE was on the date. If not, the issue of who pays the band is easy - Grant gets dope money, the Ludwig people pay their own in whatever manner they did things, the tape gets names written on it, hey, easiest scenario to date. Occam's Razor.

And you know, ask yourself this - what's going on that a guy who is a regular visitor to Pittsburgh needs bread to cop, and the guy he calls is Gene Ludwig's manager. What's the deal there? That's not the type of favor you ask just anybody, you need to know in advance what your odds are that you're not going to get completely shut down, or worse. So...there is more to this story than is being told, has to be. Either that, or fraud was perpetrated and hubris is acting up 

Or maybe not. Either way, it's about time that jazz organ join the Q-Anon age!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, robertoart said:

Is the organ so many shades of homogenous that a lifetime of serious listeners can't categorically distinguish an albums worth of material between John Patton and Larry Young lol. 

I have been wondering that since the beginning, should be a no-brainer. I will not pretend I am astute enough to have questioned it before I talked to Dixon, but once he put the bug in my ear, I joined team Larry. Patton has somewhat of a more 'chunk-a-chunk' approach, Larry is more fluid (no disrespect intended). That Love Supreme vamp seals the deal for me. I agree that the story, as told, is very disrespectful of Grant.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now having said all that... that's Larry Young and Verve lost their damn tape. Grant had a copy of it (or something like it) and sold it for dope money to a hustler in Pittsburgh, who then waited a while and then sold it to Joe Fields who didn't really give a damn. Nobody set foot in a Pittsburgh studio to make this record.

There, try that one on for size!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The organ can be anything it's player wills it to be! It's got stops and shit! And I don't want to but TOO much credence in a Gene Ludwig Theory, but...he would not be the first player who had a gig style and the some whole other stuff stored away. Ludwig, being a white guy playing hardcore black gigs might we'll have loved a chance to step out of his Jimmy Smith bag under a shadow of anonymity.

Too bad that nobody asked Ben Dixon if HE was on the date. If not, the issue of who pays the band is easy - Grant gets dope money, the Ludwig people pay their own in whatever manner they did things, the tape gets names written on it, hey, easiest scenario to date. Occam's Razor.

Or maybe not. Either way, it's about time that jazz organ join the Q-Anon age!!!!

And you know, ask yourself this - what's going on that a guy who is a regular visitor to Pittsburgh needs bread to cop, and the guy he calls is Gene Ludwig's manager. What's the deal there? That's not the type of favor you ask just anybody, you need to know in advance what your odds are that you're not going to get completely shut down, or worse. So...there is more to this story than is being told, has to be. Either that, or fraud was perpetrated and hubris is acting up 

It can't be Ludwig - the Cobblestone record would have had to say 'Gene Ludwig appears courtesy of Travis records' LOL.

When Ben Dixon discussed it with me, he never suggested it was not him. Sure wish I had recorded the whole conversation.

Agreed, the Ludwig manager story is dubious at best. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gene Ludwig appears courtesy of Joe Fields getting suckered LOL!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Now having said all that... that's Larry Young and Verve lost their damn tape. Grant had a copy of it (or something like it) and sold it for dope money to a hustler in Pittsburgh, who then waited a while and then sold it to Joe Fields who didn't really give a damn. Nobody set foot in a Pittsburgh studio to make this record.

There, try that one on for size!

Only three overlapping tunes though. If all 6 songs on the Iron City date were on the Verve date, we would have had a winning theory.

Solved - it is neither Larry Young nor John Patton, it is Malcolm Bass! Just like Hassan, his discography doubles overnight!

Reminder - Bill Heid told me it was definitely not Larry. I thought he meant in terms of technical organ issues or harmonies or something, but last time it came up, he almost made it sound like he knows something... He is in on the secret.

Solved - it is Bill Heid on organ and George Heid on drums!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Verve or somebody paid for a rehearsal/demo tape and this was it?

Just how authorative is the discographical source for the unissued session, who says so?

The red flag for me is Work Song, that opening, that's not something you let slide if you are going for "releasable", that's "just let it run" shit. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Verve or somebody paid for a rehearsal/demo tape and this was it?

Just how authorative is the discographical source for the unissued session, who says so?

The red flag for me is Work Song, that opening, that's not something you let slide if you are going for "releasable", that's "just let it run" shit. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Verve demo - now there's a theory.

Probably from session logs, so accuracy cannot be proven until you listen to the damn thing.

What exactly is wrong with Work Song? Mike Fitzgerald had issues with it too. He messes up the head on the first run through, but gets it right after. He fucks up Oleo too on a Blue Note date but no one seems to be complaining about that.

I was wrong - the entire comping behind Grant's solo on Go Down Moses is Love Supreme, and Grant picks up on it during the organ solo.

100% sure it is Larry. And it can't be early 1965. Need to give Larry and Grant a chance to absorb the Coltrane record. It is the July 1965 date, period. I am sure.

Edited by bertrand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the head, he turns it around, like you say. But if there was anybody in the room, they'd have stopped it right there 

Oleo is a different thing, a Giant Steps- ish reharm of the melody, pretty tricky. And that stayed in the can for a good long time.

This Work Song is just a fuckup, period. Let It Roll indeed. If there was any notion in the room of doing this as a keeper.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike Fitzgerald thought part of the head was flat out missing, That is not true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway, try this...Grant has some kind of tape on him of whatever origin (that's a whole other question, but...the man had "personal problems" do...we don't ask), sells it for dope money, one dude calls and says, yes that Grant has traded a record date for dope money, 

Parse that very closely.

Klein rushes over to the studio, where they're playing the tape they just got (as opposed to made), there's a tune on there that doesn't have a name, so he names it. Grant's  tape came in a box that had names on it, but big deal, it's a tape box.

Bottom line, there was no actual recording session in a Pittsburgh studio, the studio was booked to review the purchased tape, and this Klein guy is getting all Columbus-y about it. All the mental contortions about dates and contracts and shit, poof, they gone now.

Occam's Razor, again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would explain why Verve can't find the tape...

It is odd that he arrived at the studio at the tail-end of the session, if there was a session. If I was paying for a session, I would be there to make sure it is happening.

And was Pittsburgh the only town in which he needed some money in a hurry? Did he make it a habit to offer to do a quick record date on the fly and give up all rights to it? Where are all the other sessions?

I have a theory that Lee Morgan may have made some secret sessions for Roulette, since he was copyrighting mystery tunes in Morris Levy's publising company. I checked with the people who would most likely have the tapes - nothing. All I know is that Morris Levy would not have given Lee some money without expecting something in return.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

iron city was never my favourite GG album. i only ever listened to samba de orfeu and always assumed it was larry young. the harmonic movement from 4:10 on sounds like LY. he sounds similar on the verve. but the rest doesn't sound very much like him imo. neither the organ sound nor the soloing. there is also this distinct dry voicing LY uses for soloing (i know nothing about organs) that is not present anywhere on iron city but is on all his BN records.

crazy theory: LY sat in on samba, the rest is BJP.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, hgweber said:

 

crazy theory: LY sat in on samba, the rest is BJP.

 

Not so crazy, that's another theory I'm sure others have thought as well. 

The original Cobblestone vinyl does have a 50/50 stereo split, the organ across the whole album can be isolated to a virtual organ-drum audio or vice-versa a guitar-drum one. 

The title track reminds me of the Let Em Roll title track form wise. 

We need some modern organ masters to do a deep dive into the voicings and harmony on each track lol. 

Always wondered about the master tapes to this session? Do they hold any clues? 

The mystery of this session is impenetrable by the looks of it. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, a detailed musical analysis could help. Remember that Dixon said Patton could never play like that.

The Master Tape could have some studio chatter. Joe Fields purchased it, so in theory Barney Fields could have it. When Joel Dorn reissues it on 32jazz, did he go back to the master? I doubt it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

32Jazz bought Muse's masters, and Denon bought 32Jazz's masters, so the tape, if it still exists, is now in Denon's possession.

Edited by mjzee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Who do we know at Denon? Is there a branch in the US or Japan only? I can't keep these conglomerates straight. And where is Savoy now? At some point they were with Muse.

Edited by bertrand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The saga never ends. The subject of Wayne Shorter's Vee Jay and Blue Note contracts came up on the Mosaic/Frank Wolff photos Facebook page. So I asked about Grant. Apparently:

1) Grant was on loan to Verve and still with Blue Note in 1965. Does it say courtesy of Blue Note on the King Funk record?

2) The contracts still exist in the vaults but not available for us to see.

I am sure Cobblestone said 1967 because by then Grant was a free agent. They probably did not know the date but were not about to go digging.

I wish Blue Note would at least release the contract dates, I don't need to know about the bread. If that 1966 Left Bank session is to be released ever, someone needs to know if he was a free agent at that point. He probably was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.