Pim

Billy Harper Quintet - Antibes 1975

74 posts in this topic

30 minutes ago, Pim said:

Well to those sharing those illegal FLACS: enjoy them! Have to say mr. Thomas does not deserve it.

He deserves to sell his LPs to people who want them, and from what I can see, that's exactly what he's doing. Seeing that some of them have sold out already, he is getting exactly what he deserves in that regard.

Otherwise...FLACs? Are you sure? Illegal? How? Where?

46 minutes ago, david weiss said:

One thing not really considered here is the artist. I don't want to get too deep into it but limited edition releases like this guarantee a low payday for the artist with no hope of any additional sales to make it even a half way respectable payday. These limited edition record store day type things have resulted in some of the lowest offers for compensation to the artist that I have seen in manny years. It's nice for the music to come out and I understand the nature of a non-profit and their supposed good intentions but it would be nice to see the artist compensated a fair amount as well.

Hello.

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49 minutes ago, david weiss said:

One thing not really considered here is the artist. I don't want to get too deep into it but limited edition releases like this guarantee a low payday for the artist with no hope of any additional sales to make it even a half way respectable payday. These limited edition record store day type things have resulted in some of the lowest offers for compensation to the artist that I have seen in manny years. It's nice for the music to come out and I understand the nature of a non-profit and their supposed good intentions but it would be nice to see the artist compensated a fair amount as well.

I have no reason to doubt this but I also have no idea what compensation Sam agreed with Harper. For all we know it could be an exception to that rule. 

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The next time I see Billy (hopefully there will be one), I'll give him $30 bucks cash and apologize for not buying the Sam LP.

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23 minutes ago, JSngry said:

He deserves to sell his LPs to people who want them, and from what I can see, that's exactly what he's doing. Seeing that some of them have sold out already, he is getting exactly what he deserves in that regard.

Otherwise...FLACs? Are you sure? Illegal? How? Where?

Hello.

If you rip the LP and share the files with friends, that is illegal as far as I know?

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24 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

I have no reason to doubt this but I also have no idea what compensation Sam agreed with Harper. For all we know it could be an exception to that rule. 

I do but I'm not going to go into it on a public forum. I stand by my statement. 

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13 minutes ago, Pim said:

If you rip the LP and share the files with friends, that is illegal as far as I know?

No?

And if I don't do that, is that illegal?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

One thing not really considered here is the artist. I don't want to get too deep into it but limited edition releases like this guarantee a low payday for the artist with no hope of any additional sales to make it even a half way respectable payday. These limited edition record store day type things have resulted in some of the lowest offers for compensation to the artist that I have seen in manny years. It's nice for the music to come out and I understand the nature of a non-profit and their supposed good intentions but it would be nice to see the artist compensated a fair amount as well.

I could see what you mean David. For all I know is that Sam always release this stuff in an agreement with the artist himself. Or do you think that Harper agreed to make at least some, money?

 

By the way: if you and The Cookers ever make another European tour, please to not skip the Netherlands. The two last shows were cancelled due to COVID. I really hope I will be able to see you guys play!

5 minutes ago, JSngry said:

No?

And if I don't do that, is that illegal?

Wel you’ve lost me there.

Edited by Pim

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1 hour ago, Pim said:

Well to those sharing those illegal FLACS: enjoy them! Have to say mr. Thomas does not deserve it. His products truly show craftmanship and love for the music. Of course it’s his choice how to release his music, as it’s also the choice of some copies to release on cd only. I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to attempt an illegal digital file simply because I don’t want to buy cd’s. But that’s my humble opinion. 
 

I feel mostly like something fellow board member Clifford Allen said. Something like: I’ll buy it whatever the format is as long as the music is good. And this music is very good! 

:tup

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There'll be enough, some day.

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

There'll be enough, some day.

Cry of Harper Hunger.

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Yeah, there's not enough to pay Billy too much becuased there's not enough to sell maybe some more because there's not enough to make some CDs, but don't worry, there'll be enough SOMEDAY, like, if Sam's not making money, he's probably not losing money either, so how convenient that there's not enough after that. I bet Sam got a day gig or something.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, david weiss said:

I do but I'm not going to go into it on a public forum. I stand by my statement. 

I thought again about what you said David but isn’t it true that with these releases, at least somebody is releasing it and offering Mr. Harper some compensation for his incredible music. Apparently en very unfortunately none of these bigger labels is interested anymore in releasing it. After all: they only release music for its market potential. Or is this to easy thinking of me?

Edited by Pim

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19 hours ago, Pim said:

I thought again about what you said David but isn’t it true that with these releases, at least somebody is releasing it and offering Mr. Harper some compensation for his incredible music. Apparently en very unfortunately none of these bigger labels is interested anymore in releasing it. After all: they only release music for its market potential. Or is this to easy thinking of me?

Again, I can't get too deep into it in a public forum. To prove a point, I would have to get into numbers and that is personal. Yes, independent labels do not have the budgets the major labels do but there is still a fair wage to pay a musician even if you are an independent label. But that really wasn't my point anyways though. I was saying that this limited edition model makes it more difficult to pay a musician a fair wage since you are limiting how many you can sell and therefore depriving the artist of potential royalties from more sales. The limited edition might guarantee you make a splash and sell out but it is not the best model for the musician who made the music in first place. I see that the album sold for 28 euros on their web-site so at maximum (if they sold them all through their web-site), 28 x 2,000 is 56,000 Euros. I'm sure a certain amount sold through distributors where the label would see less money per album and there are expenses as well but I don't know about non-profit. Non-profits do have salaried employees and sometimes they take a decent salary as well. I'm just trying to say I'm a little skeptical. More power to him for starting a label and more power to him for these great releases but I remain a bit skeptical about all the limited edition and non-profit stuff.... There is a reason all these labels are jumping into this record store day stuff....

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An Amazon seller has one for something just a little under $100.00. I know, still available thru normal channels, but this limited run stuff is a hedge bet, because if you limit it to a smaller market than you know really wants it, a sellout is all but guaranteed, because the aftermarket sellers will pick it up and get their price for it. This is not complicated, this is raw capitalism. This is not a labor of true love, because love takes risks, and love does not build a safety net for itself.

So still, there'll be enough...someday.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

An Amazon seller has one for something just a little under $100.00. I know, still available thru normal channels, but this limited run stuff is a hedge bet, because if you limit it to a smaller market than you know really wants it, a sellout is all but guaranteed, because the aftermarket sellers will pick it up and get their price for it. This is not complicated, this is raw capitalism. This is not a labor of true love, because love takes risks, and love does not build a safety net for itself.

So still, there'll be enough...someday.

You should have seen the goings on with Yusuf Lateef’s Eastern Sounds which was released by Craft in April as a one step and limited to 1,000 copies. When Craft opened it for purchase it was gone in two minutes. Copies are now selling on eBay in the $300-400 range. Craft has promised to increase the quantities on future one steps. 

Edited by Brad

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So is this the Eleventh Commandment or the First Amendment to the Ten? Asking for a friend. 


“Thou may rip but if thou seeest Billy/Duke/Pops (insert name here) round or near thine ownmost gaff or within a few clicks bung him threefold of tenners and be on thine way mutely and meekly.”


And by the way somebody should have explained the morality of the limited edition to Mosaic a long time ago...

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2 hours ago, Brad said:

You should have seen the goings on with Yusuf Lateef’s Eastern Sounds which was released by Craft in April as a one step and limited to 1,000 copies. When Craft opened it for purchase it was gone in two minutes. Copies are now selling on eBay in the $300-400 range. Craft has promised to increase the quantities on future one steps. 

Lunacy.

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6 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Lunacy.

This follows on their issuance of Lush Life, similarly limited. 

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And I can get that, actually, because there has been no shortage of Prestige vinyl over the years, I mean just how bad do you want THOSE records, unless you got a kinky jones for them, you can get "a record" of those. An unreleased Billy Harper gig, this is it, not decades of inventory to paw though to get to that one.

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, david weiss said:

Again, I can't get too deep into it in a public forum. To prove a point, I would have to get into numbers and that is personal. Yes, independent labels do not have the budgets the major labels do but there is still a fair wage to pay a musician even if you are an independent label. But that really wasn't my point anyways though. I was saying that this limited edition model makes it more difficult to pay a musician a fair wage since you are limiting how many you can sell and therefore depriving the artist of potential royalties from more sales. The limited edition might guarantee you make a splash and sell out but it is not the best model for the musician who made the music in first place. I see that the album sold for 28 euros on their web-site so at maximum (if they sold them all through their web-site), 28 x 2,000 is 56,000 Euros. I'm sure a certain amount sold through distributors where the label would see less money per album and there are expenses as well but I don't know about non-profit. Non-profits do have salaried employees and sometimes they take a decent salary as well. I'm just trying to say I'm a little skeptical. More power to him for starting a label and more power to him for these great releases but I remain a bit skeptical about all the limited edition and non-profit stuff.... There is a reason all these labels are jumping into this record store day stuff....

These are recordings from the archives of Radio France, owned by the French National Audiovisual Institute (INA). INA works with Fred Thomas, but also with other labels, to make selected recordings from these archives available to the general public.

Edited by corto maltese

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2 hours ago, corto maltese said:

These are recordings from the archives of Radio France, owned by the French National Audiovisual Institute (INA). INA works with Fred Thomas, but also with other labels, to make selected recordings from these archives available to the general public.

18 hours ago, David Ayers said:

So is this the Eleventh Commandment or the First Amendment to the Ten? Asking for a friend. 


“Thou may rip but if thou seeest Billy/Duke/Pops (insert name here) round or near thine ownmost gaff or within a few clicks bung him threefold of tenners and be on thine way mutely and meekly.”


And by the way somebody should have explained the morality of the limited edition to Mosaic a long time ago...

I'm well aware of the INA archive. INA licenses these recordings to labels for a fee based on a percentage on the number of albums pressed. I've had offers where a larger percentage of the pie was offered to INA then to the artist. Another example of the artist, who produced the actual music, always being last in line for payments...

Different situation I believe. Mosaic dealt with collections of previously issued music for the most part (with some alternate takes) and licensed the music from various labels. Sometimes the license deal would be based on the number of albums pressed and hence, one of the reasons for the limited edition....

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10 hours ago, david weiss said:

I'm well aware of the INA archive. INA licenses these recordings to labels for a fee based on a percentage on the number of albums pressed. I've had offers where a larger percentage of the pie was offered to INA then to the artist. Another example of the artist, who produced the actual music, always being last in line for payments...

Different situation I believe. Mosaic dealt with collections of previously issued music for the most part (with some alternate takes) and licensed the music from various labels. Sometimes the license deal would be based on the number of albums pressed and hence, one of the reasons for the limited edition....

But you criticised the "limited edition model" because it brought the artist less income, didn't you? Mosaics sell out too...

Isn't it possible that the licence agreement with INA also contain provisions on the size of the pressing? And would the "percentage of the pie" offered to the artists not be determined by INA, the owner of the recording? The Sam Records website mentions that the album is released "with the full permission and cooperation" of Billy Harper. Is there any reason to doubt this?

Of course I have no intention of accusing you of anything and I want to respect that you cannot reveal all your information on a public forum, but I honestly don't really understand your criticism on this specific release and label. Taking into account the high quality of the production and presentation and the very reasonable price, this can hardly be considered as an example of making quick money on the backs of the musicians. I don't need to tell you that there are hundreds of new releases in the shops every week where such practices are taking place.

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Mosaics sometimes sell out. But when they do, they sell out to a volume that usually more than meets initial sale estimates. It takes a while. And they do it at a per-unit price that is certainly not aggressively affordable, but certainly appropriate for the music/format offered.

I have yet to have it explained to me why $20-$40 LPs are a better value than a $20 CD with twice the content, or a $15 CD with the same content.

"Nobody" buys CDs any more? That's a lie, especially in niche music like this. What this LP crap does is to extract more income from limited product. Again, raw capitalism, not "love". They are gaming the consumer, who, as is often the case, voluntary stooges. Would anybody refuse to buy this Billy Harper thing if it was NOT issued on LP? Or given the choice, how many would go with the CD option?

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Re CD sales -- I read an interesting interview with Steve Feigenbaum of Cuneiform Records recently, from Feb. 2020. Granted Cuneiform is a niche within a niche, but pretty eye opening for me at least.

https://plusoneme.substack.com/p/steve-feigenbaum-talks-about-cuneiform

You don’t see much about CD sales.

They don’t talk about it because it isn’t perceived as interesting or hip by the media. Something that I can sell 1,000 copies of as a CD, if it comes out on vinyl, and the band doesn’t take any from me, maybe I can sell 75 or 100.

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