Posts posted by king ubu
9 hours ago, david weiss said:
Question... What makes you think Arnhem was a radio broadcast?
Also, it seems like 2 tunes on the same tape would be at different speeds so it seems +38 cents to fix "Sonnymoon", +24 cents to fix "Love Walked In is all about the tape speed it accurate. Also, 38 cents flat is not even a quarter tone flat so still closer to Bb then A though clearly out of tune.
Uhm, nothing really - I was expressing the fact that when I heard about the upcoming release many moons ago (expectation management is something Resonance really does work hard on ... and apologies, but there as well I do not always think their choices are swell), I was *hoping* this might now be a radio archival version to replace the bootleg with.
As for the speed fixes, I'm only the messenger there, but feel free to behead me, no problem4 hours ago, david weiss said:
My work on these projects is usually pretty specific. I usually vet the material and if they want edits, will explore the possibilities for them. I'm in New York and Resonance is in LA so I am not in the studio for all the production work.
Why wouldn't a casual listener buy a live Sonny Rollins set? I assume they would buy the more affordable CD set or eventually download it or something instead of buying the LPs.
I think it is an industry wide mandate that all formats have to have the same exact material. It first came up for me when working on something for Blue Note. I don't know this for sure but everyone seems to be following this mandate.
Interesting, many thanks!
This Rollins set, though, is not one that ought to be marketed for casual listeners - it doesn't have good enough sound for that (with the exception of the studio session kicking things off!), and it may be too challenging musically for many, as well ... but hey, from the business side it's sales (but there's an underlying business rationale there, too, isn't there? Will people continue buying Resonance product if they feel this is "bad" because the sound quality keeps them from enjoying it?)
The "industry wide mandate" is bogus b-s in my opinion - and it may be related to the industry being in deep sh*t: they're unwilling/unable to cope with different formats, see the ups and downs for each etc.
And since it seems you did suggest the edits (after all, considering circumstances, they had to be done and thus had to be done by someone!): chapeau! Pretending for a sec that I agree they're a necessity: they're well-done - that's for sure. And I'm serious now!
Was about 20/21 when I started following the BNBB ... about to turn 24 when this site started.
By the "turning numbers" game I'd be 14, but that's an age I definitely don't feel a need to revisit
56 minutes ago, JSngry said:
Hey, I can do both. And will, lol!
But doing the comparing last Sunday was really quite a bit of a disillusionary thing (and hey, I didn't post here immediately ... by then I'd stopped alternatively fuming/cursing and crying )
Oh wow, gotta get this for the bonus tracks then!
It's a 2 CD set. They should've made it 3 CDs though and included all of it, unedited (what's there should have fit onto two discs, unedited - but they also omitted three incomplete tracks, which has been mentioned somewhere in this thread).
And I'm bi-fold there, Resonance has done lots of good stuff (Wes Montgomery, Jones/Lewis, Larry Young, Getz and Getz/Gilbert, the Bill Evans trio with DeJohnette etc.) so I'll keep being interested. I was a bit ... irritated by the Dolphy (but then that one's great, as the Douglas material has not been on any decent CD version so far) ... and now the Rollins definitely is a partial hack-job, alas
Oh, and the Nat King Cole box is great - for those few left that care for that wonderful musician!
14 hours ago, bresna said:
I think it's pretty funny that the purported "Jazz detective" missed all those edits for his CD release. I get making those cuts for the LP, but inexcusable for the CD.
Well no, he *applied* them (or had someone do it)!
I have a hunch that "our" bootleg source (yes, it is available ...) was the source, the quick fade at the end of "Dolphin Street/..." is exactly the same, and from the Loosdrecht material it's pretty obviously Resonance would not have gotten the speed right for the Arnhem portions.
Here's the full list of work done to the Arnhem set (first part by yours truly, second part by a musician friend who's known over on dime for his great work fixing speed and other other stuff on a variety of ROIOs, which I still prefer to "bootleg" as none of us is making any money with this):
- delete silence/noise before CD1#1
- moved mark CD1#1/2: +6sec
- copied right channel into left on CD1#2 (0:09-3:07) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- deleted 0.4sec dropout @ 23:09 in CD1#1 (skip remains audible)
- deleted tiny dropout @ 24:02 in CD1#1 (skip remains audible)
- moved mark CD1#2/3: -1.5sec, deleted 0.1sec dropout
- copied right channel into left on CD1#3 (5:20-6:09, 7:08-8:53, 11:22-11:25) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- separated CD1#4 from CD1#3
- spliced intro of CD2#1 (a bit too loud) from duplicated partial version of same tune that followed CD1#3 (after the 13:12 cut), deleted duplicated track (7:34, faded at end)
- copied right channel into left on CD2#1 (6:15-8:21) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- moved mark CD2#1/2: -1.6sec, delected 0.1sec dropout
- deleted tiny dropout CD2#2 12:17
- copied right channel into left on CD2#2 (17:43-18:14, 18:41-19:21) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- deleted last 19sec of CD2#2 (duplication of beginning of CD2#3)
- deleted first 5.4sec of CD2#3 (duplication of applause of CD2#2)
- copied right channel into left on CD2#3 (0:00-0:06) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- moved mark CD2#3/4: +38sec, deleted 0.1sec dropout around old mark, deleted noisy applause and silence (18.6sec), added fade-out
- deleted last 7.5sec of CD2#4 (duplication)
- moved mark CD2#4/5: +9sec, deleted 0.1sec dropout around old mark
- deleted silence at end of CD2#5 (4sec)
- CD1#2 came as "Four - Don't Stop the Carnival", but it's mainly "Four" with Sonny quoting various other tunes in a free-flowing improvisation
- CD1#3 was followed by an incomplete version of CD2#1, the intro was longer on CD1#3, I spliced that onto CD2#1 and deleted the rest
- CD2#3 came as just "Three Little Words" - I am not sure if there are two or just one other tunes following or what they are.
Pitch of all tracks was approx. 55 cents sharp. CD2 t03 was approx. an additional 49 cents from approx. 21:33:07 til the end; (these times taken after initial correction.)
CD1 - Track 1 - Fixed glitch at 2:09:70-2:09:72; 3:47:73; 03:33:57; gap at 21:53:71-21:54:02 removed; deleted beginning to 00:00:32 - it was only noise. Retracked at 21:53:22 (cut til end, paste to 2, fade 1)
CD1 - Track 2 - Fixed glitches at 3:27:06 in the left channel; 00:19:70
CD1 - Track 3 - Fixed glitch at 5:40:46. Deleted 13:37:72 til the end - it was only noise.
CD2 - Track 1 - Fixed small click at 00:15:05. Reduced volume from beginning til 00:15:05 by 4.5 dB.
CD2 - Track 2 - Fixed 3 clicks at 13:14:31, 13:18:56, 13:55:49, 14:19:05; cut last 00:08:28 after fade til end to paste to next track
CD2 - Track 3 - Fixed click at 00:05:44-47, pasted 00:08:28 to beginning.
CD2 - Track 4 - Reduced glitch at 50:30:55-61
All tracks have been phase corrected and amplified +3dB. Some fades added to smooth transitions.
So yeah, plenty of painstaking work ... my hope when I saw the announcement from Resonance was obviously that they found a better source, possibly even a radio source and not the AUD (I guess) that has been in circulation ... but alas not.
And thanks @Mark Stryker - following your work, though I've not made my way all through the Detroit book just yet.
--14 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:
You should hear that Monterose/Bennink duo. Sonny is Sonny, but it's up there.
Would certainly love to hear that!!!
Well drop notes for grifting whatever ... whomever ... whenever.
15 hours ago, JSngry said:
Let me know when it gets here, I'll go there.
Doesn't work for the DETS series, alas
I recently bought all of the Dexter Gordon w/Tete Montoliu series on Steeplechase, first two were CD-Rs, rest CDs ... got another couple of CD-Rs by Gordon.
Add Storyville to the list, at least as far as earlier Volumes of the DETS series go (Duke Ellington Treasury Series) - I've got about half a dozen which I'd love to replace by the real thing, eventually. At least they (both Steeplechase and Storyville) do offer properly photocopied booklets (on somewhat thin paper, but back in the day of the RVG series, Blue Note CDs used to come with booklets printed on really thin paper, often with traces (folds) from manufaturing/slipping booklet into case over here).
What really puts me off is the fact that most of these labels don't bother to declare what's CD and what's CD-R - so you can't even blame the vendor (how is he to know what a sealed jewel case contains if the label doesn't tell him?)
It's a dilemma really: those of us who still buy physical product don't want CD-Rs, the labels need to keep in print a reasonably attractive catalogue so we don't fully forget about them, they can't afford to keep CDs in print, they end up pissing off the few customers left ...
8 minutes ago, JSngry said:
Also available for pre-order at Amazon, how does the shipping work out for you doing that?
Over here, fine (3-4€ shipping, free shipping if I combine a few items), only a.de has it with a price tat, and that one's bit on the high side (25€, though that will certainly change as the release date comes closer) - but I don't like to make that fegher even more dirty rich. Ordered plenty of stuff from musicians and labels and (particularly Bandcamp Fridays) during this year, and plan to stick to that as much as possible (though I still occasionally do need my A account, alas).
For a.com orders, shipping is in that same range, i.e. 12-14 $ for a CD, I think - it's been a while that I had to go that route.
int'l shipping is 13 something US $ ... if the Bayete was in stock right now, I might try for two, but I guess I'll wait for it to reach the shores of CataloniaJust now, JSngry said:
Omnivore seems to have a good relationship with is now the home label, so they probably handled this up front...but it would be nice to see that confirmed in some fine print somehere...
I sure hope they did!
They seem to have done fine on the Art Pepper reissues, or else we'd all know, right?
7 minutes ago, JSngry said:
What is to keep this from getting Palo Alto-ed?
stfo now, willya!
45 minutes ago, Caravan said:
Musis Sacrum is NOT the same as the Akademie voor Beeldende Kunst. The concert was at the aula of the Akademie. I was there.
Thanks, that's great to know!
The bootleg came with very little usable information, not even the date was quite clear ...
Oh, and how I'd love to have this memory!!!
Hasaan Ibn Ali – Metaphysics: The Lost Atlantic Album
Omnivore, 2LP/CD, 5 March 2021
Hasaan’s 1965 Atlantic recordings, restored from long-lost acetate copies of the sessions.
“He had ideas as deep as the sea. I mean I never heard anybody, even today, play like that.” – Odean Pope – tenor saxophonist
“The pianist, Hasaan Ibn Ali, whom saxophonist Odean Pope calls “the most advanced player to ever develop [in Philadelphia],” had practiced intensively with John Coltrane in the early 1950s and is thought, by Pope and others, to have been the influence behind Coltrane’s so-called sheets of sound as well as the harmonic approach that underlay Coltrane’s breathrough Giant Steps, and also, with Earl Bostic, one of the two role models behind Coltrane’s strict work ethic. Yet he was rarely employed, even by musicians who respected his playing and his knowledge, thus leaving him with little chance to develop an audience. When he sat down at the piano at the Woodbine, an after-hours club in Philadelphia, all the horn players would leave the stand for they were unable to play with him, so unfamiliar were his harmonic concepts.” —from the liner notes
In 1964, drummer/composer Max Roach convinced Atlantic Records to record him with producer Nusuhi Ertegun at the helm. Sessions were held in December of 1964 and the resulting album, The Max Roach Trio Featuring The Legendary Hasaan was released three months later. Atlantic invited Ali to record again in August and September of 1965, but before mixing sessions could turn the recorded material into a releasable album, Ali had become incarcerated on a narcotics possession. Atlantic shelved the album. Thirteen years later that tape went up in flames in an Atlantic Records warehouse in Long Branch, New Jersey. For years a rumor circulated, that a copy of the sessions had been made, but attempts to locate it never turned up a source… until now.
Restored and mastered by Grammy® Award-winning engineer, Michael Graves from a tape copy of long-lost reference acetates of the sessions and with notes from producer Alan Sukoenig and author/pianist/teacher, Lewis Porter, Omnivore Recordings is proud to present this long-thought lost piece of jazz history. The project, co-produced by Alan Sukoenig and Grammy® Award-nominated producer, Patrick Milligan, and Grammy® Award-winning producer, Cheryl Pawelski, features the seven surviving tracks from the album sessions along with three surviving alternate takes. Packaging includes photos from December of 1964 by notable photographer Larry Fink, who refers to Ali as, “the Prokofiev of jazz.”
Personnel on the August 23 and September 7, 1965 sessions that took place at Atlantic Studios in New York City were Hasaan Ibn Ali, piano; Odean Pope, tenor sax; Art Davis, bass and Kalil Madi, drums and all are profiled in the liner notes.
RICHARD MAY LOVE GIVE POWELL
TRUE TRAIN (Short Version) [Bonus Track]
VICEROY (Short Version) [Bonus Track]
ATLANTIC ONES (Short Version) [Bonus Track]
Mods, please move/merge/delete if this has been posted already, a search only brought up threads on Roach's trio album and Brian Marsella's recent tribute album.
Well, the music is fantastic! But I guess we (I) should keep making sure the boot version doesn't go out of circulation.
And this is off-topic here, but you all know the Monk "Palo Alto" is running slow, too, right? Guess Mr. Feldman took the right lane this time (but it was still wrong, uhm....)
And apologies to y'all for returning after months with a rant and bad mood (which generally isn't the case, though the world - or rather: mankind - gives more than enough reason). Either way, heita!
Loosdrecht runs slow (+38 cents to fix "Sonnymoon", +24 cents to fix "Love Walked In").
Here's my attempt to figure out the cuts on all of disc two - what a nuisance ... this is some of the greatest music ever to be heard, sound quality is only marginally better than the circulating version (in which, as some may remember, I had a hand in), actually makes me wonder what exactly was the source Resonance used, certainly not a pristine radio archive copy at all (I guess the NJA logo is there because of the studio tracks, LP side A/CD1#1-4).
:: Resonance Version ::
SIDE A (CD 1 #1-4) — Recorded at VARA Studio 5, Hilversum, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Blue Room (4:49) — L. Hart, R. Rodgers / Warner Bros Inc. (Warner Bros Music Div.), Williamson Music Co. (ASCAP)
* Four (5:14) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)
* Love Walked In (6:04) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)
* Tune Up (6:57) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)
SIDE B (CD 1 #5-6) — Recorded live at the Go-Go club, Loosdrecht, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Sonnymoon for Two (8:13) – S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
* Love Walked In (9:31) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)
SIDE C-F (CD 1 #7, CD 2) — Recorded live at Academie voor Beeldende Kunst, Arnhem, The Netherlands on May 3, 1967
@ Three Little Words (22:25) – B. Kalmar, H. Ruby / BMG Firefly, Edwin H. Morris & Company, Inc., Ruby Harry Music Co. (ASCAP)
# They Can’t Take That Away From Me/Sonnymoon for Two (9:33) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP) & S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
# On Green Dolphin Street/There Will Never Be Another You (15:00) – B. Kaper, N. Washington / Catharine Hinen, Pattie Washington Music, Primary Waves Songs (ASCAP) & M. Gordon, H. Warren / Four Jays Music Co., Mattsam Music, Morley Music Co. (ASCAP)
# Love Walked In (19:45) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)
# Four (22:19) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)
*) Resonance exclusive
@) complete on Resonance set, as well as in bootleg version
#) edited on Resonance set, complete/longer on bootleg version
:: Bootleg Version ::
Arnhem (NL), prob.
Musis Sacrum(location wrong, aula of the Academy is correct, see post by @Caravan below!) – May 3, 1967
Sonny Rollins – tenor sax
Ruud Jacob – bass
Han Bennink – drums, congas
# 1. Love Walked In (George & Ira Gershwin) 22:35
# 2. Four (Miles Davis) 27:14
* 3. Old Devil Moon (Lane-Harburg) 13:38 [incomplete, cut]
# 1. They Can’t Take That Away From Me (George & Ira Gerswhin)
> Sonnymoon For Two (Sonny Rollins) 13:59
# 2. On Green Dolphin Street (Kaper-Washington)
> There Will Never Be Another You (Warren-Gordon) 19:50
@ 3. Three Little Words (Kalmar-Ruby) (22:39)
* 4. ‚Round Midnight (Thelonious Monk) (8:22) [incomplete, cuts in]
* 5. St. Thomas (trad.-Rollins) 10:34 [incomplete, fades out]
*) not on Resonance set
@) on Resonance set (both versions complete/identical)
#) edited on Resonance set
:: The Edits on Resonance ::
THREE LITTLE WORDS
THEY CAN’T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME > SONNYMOON FOR TWO (9:36 vs. 13:58)
two cuts, first one somewhere between 6:14 and 6:24 (missing ~6:20/:25 to 8:56 of the complete version, Rollins‘ re-entry @6:25 is @8:35 in the full version), second one later, couldn't really pin it down, but the drum solo is missing (~10:45-12:56 of the complete version).
ON GREEN DOLPHIN STREET > THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER YOU (15:01 vs. 19:50)
@ ~6:08 there's a (barely) audible edit (pay attention to the bass drum sound chaning right after Rollins stops playing); missing roughly 6:15-10:50 (bass solo, rhythm duo, drum solo); the fade at the end is identical on both versions (which has me wonder about sources used by R ...)
LOVE WALKED IN (19:45 vs. 22:35)
~6:55: bass solo cut (~2:23 min; also cut some applause at end, ~0:25)
FOUR (22:21 vs. 27:14)
two cuts again, first is the bass solo, second portions of drums/fours; beginning to ca. 7:00 is the same on both versions, then the first cut takes place; Rollins‘ re-entry @7:49 (Resonance) is @9:21 (Bootleg); then during the fours, there's another cut; from ~10:50 (Resonance) or ~15:35 (Bootleg) to the end, both versions are identical again (R cuts around 20 sec of applause at the end)
I'm kinda unwilling to look at this as gentlemen's behaviour. First, the rhythm sections is really firing it up and creating a great environment for Rollins to play in. Second, this environment is part of what keeps Rollins going - this is free-flow, free-association playing, and taking breaks, listening to the others, is part of the process. You don't just switch gears after four minutes and add another five, that's not how it works. And this is a live recording of great value and importance, and it really should not be treated that way - at least not in my book (doesn't compare to Columbia breaking up the Monk Quartet routine for studio recordings a bit, as those were artifical products made for a record, this is live, it's in real time, and adding cuts is really dubiuos, as a historian I'm inclined to call it revisionism).
These cuts, I guess, were mostly justdone to fit it all onto LPs. The four full tracks could not have been squeezed onto a disc, BUT the full CD2#1 would have fit onto CD1 if I got my math right!
So what it all boils down to: the uber-hip vinyl crowd is catered to, the recording twitched and defigured to better match their format ... and the same defiguration is used for CD/DL/whatever versions, which is TOTALLY BOGUS B-S UNNECESSARY.
Ok, done. And pissed.
2 hours ago, sidewinder said:
The UK saves the day !
At least it's still good for one thing then ... still waiting for a shipping notification for my Saturday order.
Amazingly, Scott just replied--and they'll send me a good booklet! Outstanding!!!
(I've already printed Daniel's pics, nicely fitted together ... I'll have use for them and the faulty booklet, quite possibly, offering it with burns to a dear friend ... perfectly legal here to share copies with personal acquaintances--but not with online "friends")
1 hour ago, romualdo said:
did you notice at the time - I'm sure you would have - who doesn't look at/read those wonderful booklets
I should have ... i have that routine of checking all the new stuff upon arrival ... and I did listen to the first part of the box right after getting it, as all that music was brand new to me!
Just now, romualdo said:
My EJ Mosaic booklet had exactly the same issue - must have been a run of faulty ones - got it replaced soon after I received it in 2004
I'm really puzzled by this - I've gotten a few replacement (scratched discs, faulty booklets) over the years, never any trouble getting them ... I have no clue why I didn't ask for a new EJ booklet back in 2006, when I bought the box!
Thanks to y'all! :tup:
Regarding "Mr. Jones", well, they needed a few more minutes to beef it up to LP length, I guess.
Btw, this must be one of my favorite Grossman moments:
About to finish my listen to discs 5-8 - terrific music, both on the studio dates (those last ones that weren't released until a few year later, are really, really good!) as well as at the Lighthouse - but I really tend to favor Liebman for musicality ... better tone, more interesting delivery, generally. His ballad feature (from the Lighthouse recording) is great as well:
I've had access to A3 scanners at work for a while (and still do) - so if I can return the favor ...
Sonny Rollins "Rollins In Holland: 1967 Studio And Live Recordings"
in New Releases
Well yeah, not composed by Miles Davis, but copyrighted, no? Merikin law and all that