Larry Kart Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Of course, the real mystery is Richie Crabtree's relationship to Peter Appleyard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I don't think MJQ would have wanted Wes as a regular member. A guest shot perhaps, but to add Wes would have broken up the intricate tone and pattern so inherent to the MJQ. It would not had worked on a sustained basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 (edited) Anyway .. far be it for me to try and bring beauty and understanding where it is not welcomed ... Hey, a snide comment here and there I suppose (not from me), but don't assume that your enthusiasm would not be welcomed. Bring it! BTW, what do you think of the Mastersounds? I agree that The Mastersounds were rather closer on the arc of "vibraphone groups" to the Shearing Quintet than to the MJQ. (BTW, the George Shearing album with the Montgomery Brothers on Riverside is a nice album), much like the Australian Jazz Quintet which was also popular at the time (they recorded for Bethlehem Records so were not as well known.) The MJQ were a real breakthrough for me in the late fifties ... but then I have always had a weakness for "third stream music" so that the classical themes actually gave me great pleasure. But, as I said earlier, they could swing better than anyone when that is what was called for. If anyone wants to sample the MJQ from their Atlantic period, may I suggest "Blues on Bach" and "The Complete Last Concert" as the best examples of what what four men swinging as one can sound like. It always amazed me that as big a man as he was, Connie Kay could get that light drum sound which just floated the group along; but it was the bass of Percy Heath that was the real anchor ... Yes, there are some MJQ albums which are rather tepid by their standards, but even these have something magical to offer upon repeated listenings. As I said earlier, I now pay as much attention to John Lewis's comping as to Milt Jackson's frontline work, and Connie Kay on triangle (!!!) is always a joy ... Don't get me started ... Also, there have been a few attempts to replace the MJQ; the most recent, and best is the Classical Jazz Quartet with Kenny Barron, Stefon Harris, Ron Carter and Lewis Nash ("The Cassical Jazz Quartet, The Complete Recordings, Vertical Jazz Records). Garth, Houston. Edited November 22, 2004 by garthsj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I don't think MJQ would have wanted Wes as a regular member. A guest shot perhaps, but to add Wes would have broken up the intricate tone and pattern so inherent to the MJQ. It would not had worked on a sustained basis. I agree with this assessment. All of the albums featuring guests show how difficult it would have been to sustain these guest additions beyond one album. The exceptions are the magnificent cuts with Jimmy Guiffre (far too few in my estimation) on the "Music Inn" album, and with Laurinda Almeida on the eponymous album. Interestingly, on their last released album as a group, (MJQ & Friends, recorded in 1992 and 1993) they are featured with a variety of stellar musicians including Phil Woods, Jimmy Heath, Branford Marsalis, Harry Edison, and Freddie Hubbard. In my opinion the most successful of these collaborations is with Wynton Marsalis on two cuts ... But when they had an "outsider" in their midst, it always seemed as if they just played the role of the supporting rhythm section. Particularly disappointing was the mediocre result of what one would have expected to be a natural combination, that of Paul Desmond and the MJQ .. pleasant, but not earthshaking. The same is true when the MJQ was featured in a big band setting ... this did not show the beauty of their tight ensemble work and the intricate, and instinctual interplay that made them so unique. As I said, don't get me started .... Garth, Houston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 From what I've heard of The Mastersounds, they're were closer to Shearing than MJQ, all things considered. Valid opinion, as they did record an album with Shearing for Jazzland (available on OJC CD). I already mentioned that record, and no, the Mastersounds didn't record with Shearing. I'm still not convinced that it follows from the fact that the M brothers recorded one album with Shearing that the Mastersounds (a quartet with no guitarist) resembled Shearing's groups. One thing that struck me as I looked at their albums- the Mastersounds stretched out. Many, if not most of the tracks on their LP's were in the 5 to 9 minute range. After Shearing recorded with the M bros (a session where the average track length was about 3:30), he thanked them for allowing him to play "more jazz than he had in years". Generally speaking, I think there was significantly more "cocktail" in Shearing's jazz concept than you will find in the Mastersounds recordings. ====== Jim, I think your "classical tinges" goes along with my "chamber jazz" comment. Still, despite that difference, there are certain things that I would think link the M's more with the MJQ (Bags' influence on Buddy; the blues factor; the aforementioned "stretchout" factor; and of course, the absence of a guitarist!!). As for the "block sound" suggestion, I'll need to listen further, but I can't say at this point that I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Anyway .. far be it for me to try and bring beauty and understanding where it is not welcomed ... Hey, a snide comment here and there I suppose (not from me), but don't assume that your enthusiasm would not be welcomed. Bring it! BTW, what do you think of the Mastersounds? I agree that The Mastersounds were rather closer on the arc of "vibraphone groups" to the Shearing Quintet than to the MJQ. Please elaborate, if you would. I'm trying to be open to the idea, I just don't hear it. I just listened to THE MASTERSOUNDS PLAY HORACE SILVER, and my expressed feelings were only reinforced. Anybody else have that recording? Listening to BALLADS AND BLUES right now, and the opening blues medley includes "Bluesology" and "Fontessa", so I guess this isn't going to be the one to change my mind. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 From what I've heard of The Mastersounds, they're were closer to Shearing than MJQ, all things considered. Valid opinion, as they did record an album with Shearing for Jazzland (available on OJC CD). I already mentioned that record, and no, the Mastersounds didn't record with Shearing. I'm still not convinced that it follows from the fact that the M brothers recorded one album with Shearing that the Mastersounds (a quartet with no guitarist) resembled Shearing's groups. I think you might be making more out of the comparison than I intended. Didn't mean to suggest taht they were like Sheraing, just that they were closer to Shearing than they were to the MJQ in terms of overall ensemble sound. Not solos or groove or anything or anything, just the way they played their heads What I've heard of The Mastersounds (the KISMET album and a few odds and ends here and there) has featured heads that are played as a unit over a "regular" rhythm, not the emphasis on melodic and rhythmic counterpoint that so many of Lewis' compositions called for. Plus, they played more "regular" type tunes. And, although they indeed swung, they did so in a relatively "polite" manner (again, based on what I've heard), yet not in the all-out "chamber" manner of the MJQ.. Noe of this means that they sounded like Shearing's group, or any thing like that, it just means that in the vibes/guitar sound (and if you're referring to The Mastersounds without Wes, I can't comment. Never really heard them, at least not that made any impact), they lean more towards Shearing than MJQ, without really going too far in either direction. It's a "realtively" thing, that's all. I mean, I could see the Mastersounds appealing more to Shearing's crowd, who liked "recognizable" material "nicely" played, than to the MJQ's, who no doubt appreciated for whatever reason(s) the "highbrow" element(s) of the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 (edited) What I've heard of The Mastersounds (the KISMET album and a few odds and ends here and there) has featured heads that are played as a unit over a "regular" rhythm, not the emphasis on melodic and rhythmic counterpoint that so many of Lewis' compositions called for. Plus, they played more "regular" type tunes. And, although they indeed swung, they did so in a relatively "polite" manner (again, based on what I've heard), yet not in the all-out "chamber" manner of the MJQ.. None of this means that they sounded like Shearing's group ... I think that these assessments essentially cover what I see as the basic differences between The Mastersounds and the MJQ. The MJQ never strove for a specific harmonic sound ... they just "were," and the combination of the four specific musicians made their "sound," largely the result of John Lewis's arrangements. Once George Shearing discovered those empathetic harmonies created by the combination of guitar, vibes, and block chords in his early MGM recordings ("East of the Sun," "September in the Rain," etc.) his group became famous, and captured the public's ear. I think that other groups with similar instrumentation tended to sound like that, whether they wished to or not. They were not clones of Shearing (although there were some of those), but to my ear they were of that groove. Garth, Houston. Edited November 22, 2004 by garthsj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Thanks for the additional clarifications and thoughts, Jim. KISMET is probably the natural choice for comparison to Shearing, and (as I listen to KISMET) I do hear some of the block-type sound / unison lines on a couple of the heads. And as I say, the PLAY HORACE SILVER didn't strike me that way, and there are some more interesting arrangements on some of their other LP's as well. In terms of their repertoire, they mixed it up, playing familiar pop standards as well as familiar and not-so-familiar jazz tunes by others as well as their own originals. Oh well, I suppose they're too safe/straight ahead (some great swinging stuff notwithstanding) for some folks. I just continue to wish for a resurfacing of more (or all) of their work. I'm very thankful to have gotten some LP burns from one of our fellow board members, and I think the term "worthy" fits. I'd love to have all of this material in clean, upgraded sound. Go beyond KISMET if you get the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popper Lou Posted November 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 As far as I know, Wes was never offered a job with the MJQ--nor would that make any sense. Where did you read this? In August, I meet Percy Heath and had his sign a copy of his CD "A Love Song". He was talking about his career with the crowd at the Iridium in NY. He mentioned that the MJQ wanted Wes to join the band, but Wes said no. He didn't give a reason. Maybe it isn't well known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannonball-addict Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I believe one of the original posts hit it on the head. I recently interviewed John Levy for a forthcoming article on Levy for AAJ and we briefly talked about Wes, whom Levy managed up to Wes' death. He told me that Wes really didn't consider himself a professional musician but just a guy who played guitar and did it to feed his family. He WAS afraid of flying and consequently he rode in a car cross-country several times. He was a very family oriented guy. He coulda had some bigger guys with him when he went on tour but he took his brother(s). Levy has a lot of great stories about Wes. He was managing Wes when he did all those charting records and he said while the press was going wild for Wes, Wes himself couldn't understand all the attention, he didn't consider himself an "artiste" like Miles or others thought of themselves. He never sought celebrity or fame, he just happened to be a guy who had immense talent - entirely self-taught. C-ba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 "Wes himself couldn't understand all the attention, he didn't consider himself an "artiste" like Miles or others thought of themselves. He never sought celebrity or fame, he just happened to be a guy who had immense talent - entirely self-taught." That's the Wes I remember from my days at Riverside, a modest, super friendly family man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Does anybody have any information on Wes playing a gig in Phoenix,Arizona prior to his passing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Does anybody have any information on Wes playing a gig in Phoenix,Arizona prior to his passing? as opposed to "after" his passing? sorry, couldn't resist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 I suppose I deserved that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) I believe one of the original posts hit it on the head. I recently interviewed John Levy for a forthcoming article on Levy for AAJ and we briefly talked about Wes, whom Levy managed up to Wes' death. He told me that Wes really didn't consider himself a professional musician but just a guy who played guitar and did it to feed his family. He WAS afraid of flying and consequently he rode in a car cross-country several times. He was a very family oriented guy. He coulda had some bigger guys with him when he went on tour but he took his brother(s). Levy has a lot of great stories about Wes. He was managing Wes when he did all those charting records and he said while the press was going wild for Wes, Wes himself couldn't understand all the attention, he didn't consider himself an "artiste" like Miles or others thought of themselves. He never sought celebrity or fame, he just happened to be a guy who had immense talent - entirely self-taught. C-ba All this may have been just as well more or less the reasons for him not joining the Coltrane group, as was recently discussed here. Edited January 17, 2006 by mikeweil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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