Need advice from English board members

[sal]

Hello,

I work for a global company where I have a very good chance to possibly get a job in England, particularly the London area, next year. I've been contemplating the idea of moving to Europe for a few years now, and with the opportunity becoming more and more realistic, I need to start some information gathering.

I guess what I'm really looking for are estimates on cost of living. I would likely be working in either Sunbury Upon Thames or Hemel Hempstead. If possible I would like to live somewhere in London, preferably in an area that has accessible public transportation to one or both of these locations. This is the preferred option, but not absolutely necessary, since I will have a car. I would be looking to rent an average sized 1 or 2 bedroom apartment. Do you know around how much it would cost to live in a decent neighborhood? Nothing fancy, but not a bad neighborhood either. I understand that London is somewhat pricey. If there are any good places just outside of London that I don't know about that you could recommend that might give me more for my money, I'm all ears! I'm completely unfamiliar with London and its infrastructure, so any pointers of the sort would be appreciated.

Also, how are the income tax rates structured and such? Anything important that you think I should know about London before starting my job search early next year? If I am fortunate enough to get an interview, I plan on taking a week's worth of vacation to visit the city and the area before the interview, as I've never been there before.

Living in the Chicago area I am used to high costs of living and big cities. I just was looking for any inside tips or pointers that only the insightful, intelligent folks of the Organissimo BB can provide!!

Thank you in advance for anyone who can help me. If any non-residents of the area have anything to add, it would be greatly appreciated as well.

Kind regards,

Sal

Edited February 18, 2005 by sal

[sal]

Up, to increase the chances of this thread being near the top by the time our friends across the pond begin to rise and shine. :rsmile:

[fent99]

I live and work in London and its an expensive place to be. Somewhere managable and reasonably central might cost around £1000 to rent a 2 bed apartment. Really central even more. My advice would be to look on the direct overland rail routes in/out from where you work Hemel is easily commutable in and out (30 mins? though I've only been there once) and likely to be cheaper out there. theres a transpot for London site which would be a help.

tfl

http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/

Taxes http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

PM me if you need any advice beyond this

PS Like many in London I'm not English...

Edited February 18, 2005 by fent99

[A Lark Ascending]

London and the areas around it are very expensive and renting there is very costly. I live 160 miles away and so can't give any information about prices.

Inside London you have a good transport system - tube (underground), rail, bus. The tube is probably the quickest though you need to be in walking distance of a station and that affects house prices/rents. Places like Hemel Hempstead (I was in a hotel there last weekend!) have rail links but the railways in the UK are expensive. They long had a reputation for unreliability; that may have changed. You can drive into London if your place of work has parking facilities but it gets very congested on a weekday and you also have to pay a £5 Congestion Charge to enter the centre.

In fact, if you're well paid you could base yourself far from London. Some people commute from as far away as Newark which is near where I live; or from Bristol or Swindon in the west. Not an option if you want the London life but you'll be living close to the countryside. There are lots of dormitory towns all around London. I'd say (and this is personal feeling) that the ones to the north like Luton, Hemel Hempstead, Stevenage are pretty soulless with very dull surroundings; there's Essex which is also 'new town land' which gives you a quick escape into some very nice Suffolk countryside; the dormitory towns to the south (which stretch all the way to the coast - many commute from Brighton) are in a lovely area; and just to the west you've got fairly dull places like Reading and Basingstoke which again have a wonderful landscape on the doorstep.

I don't know if it is still the case but north and west London used to be more expensive, east and south cheaper. There have been alot of developments in the old Docklands area in the east - lots of business building and executive housing/flats. You might even get the chance to rent out your flat in the Olympics in 2012 if we get it!

Tax - in general expect to lose 1/3 of your income. That includes things like National Insurance - I'm not sure if you would pay that as a US citizen. On top of that you have a local Community Charge to pay. This is a property tax that funds local government and varies according to the value of your house. I pay about £600 p.a. but I'm in a small property in a cheap area. London will be considerably more.

You'll find the cost of living much higher. In the main stores, for example, a full price CD sells for £16.99 or thereabouts. There are discounts to be had but compare that with what you'd pay full price in the States!

It's not hard to get to places in the UK based in London. Compared to the States we are a very small island. If you have access to a car you can be in Wales in three hours Scotland in six or seven...assuming the motorways are not clogged! We do have big congestion problems there!

From London also you can get very quickly to the continent. Flight prices have nosedived (sorry for that rather inappropriate term!) in recent years. You can also get the Eurostar to Paris or Brussels in a few hours.

Sorry I can't be specific but I hope that helps. If I dwell on the expense and problems don't let that put you off. I'd never live anywhere else...well, maybe Ireland (but that's become just as expensive in the last 15 years!)!

Edited February 18, 2005 by Bev Stapleton

[tonym]

How about a move to the 'sticks' around Hemel Hempstead or Sunbury?

You have to give up the cosmopolitan surroundings of the city, transport, culture and many other things, but you can buy yourself a nice car, live in a fairly quaint little village with a good pub and score with some country maid .

Worth considering.

I've always felt that living anywhere 'down south' would be a serious downgrade for me unless I was living and working in central London, and a nice bit to boot; the satellite towns surrounding London can seem busy, soul-less and depressing. And the roads are shocking.

If you can stump up the rent for a bijou London apartment, do it. Your quality of life will be great. And remember if you're commuting out from London you will be travelling 'against' the flow of traffic, whether that be by rail or road.

Good luck if you do take the plunge.

BTW what are the chances of 'recovering' your present lifestyle like if, having spent a year or two renting (with no equity) in London, you then return to Chicago?Keep us informed.

[A Lark Ascending]

Of course, the one big advantage of living IN London is that there is a very good jazz scene. Obviously Ronnies and places like the Jazz Cafe. There seems to be a whole world of jazz musicians who work largely inside London with occasional trips out into the provinces - the new Vortex looks promising and there's a very exciting up and coming scene based round the F-IRE Collective who play in London venues.

And then there's Rays! Alongside the megastores probably the best source of jazz recordings in the UK. You have to look long an hard once you leave London!

[sidewinder]

Stand by to pay £ for $ for pretty well everything. Coming back to the UK after years in North America I found it an expensive experience, having said that there are lots of good things over here. The place is (and always was) mad as **** but that's part of the charm. The London area is totally ridiculous in terms of property prices, less so elsewhere in the South but still pricey by international standards. Herfordshire (where Hemel is) is a pretty afluent area - some ugly dull towns (hello Luton) but also some nice countryside to the North and East of there which should be accessible (places like Baldock and Hitchin). St Albans would be well worth a look - lots of history there (pre-Roman and Roman no less) and at least one jazz dealer that I know of ( ) but again, pricey in terms of property. Central London of course is full of life but expect to have your pockets emptied big time.

Don't let me put you off ( ) - good luck with this and hope it works out well !

Edited February 18, 2005 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

On the plus side the UK jazz scene is on a particular high at present with some very good young players on the scene and overdue recognition for the older masters - lots of good festivals all over the place too. The best US players are also visiting in droves so you shouldn't feel deprived !

[A Lark Ascending]

On the plus side the UK jazz scene is on a particular high at present with some very good young players on the scene and overdue recognition for the older masters

Very, very true!

Jazz has its problems here like in the States but in general there is a spirit of optimism and movement (also true of Europe in general).

[sidewinder]

The current jazz scene here is the best that I have known in over 30 years. Comparable with the 'blip' in the mid/late 80s but with more substance, if anything. Sad to recall that some of the greatest music recorded back in the early to mid 70s (by Mike Westbrook, John Surman, Neil Ardley, Ian Carr etc.) was recorded/promoted amidst a scene of pretty well total public indifference. Acker Bilk and Kenny Ball were the limits of most people's jazz awareness.

Hopefully events such as the great 'Jazz Britannia' festivities will further promote the present very welcome renaissance ! B-)

Edited February 18, 2005 by sidewinder

[A Lark Ascending]

It reminds me of the early to mid-70s when I first came into the music. Jazz was covered in places like the Melody Maker (I bough my first Westbrook as a result of a review there (Love/Dream Variations)) and jazz musicians played the university circuit alongside the big rock bands (I recall seeing Nucleus, Lol Coxhill, Stan Tracey, Harry Miller's Isipingo on campus).

I largely missed the late 80s revival apart from Loose Tubes and Working Week - watching the final part of Jazz Britannia I was made aware of how little I came into contact with it. I was attending the pub gigs with Stan Tracey or Kenny Wheeler when everyone else was clearly jazz dancing to acid jazz grooves!

What makes it really hopeful is that the emerging new talent has been building for some years independent of the Impressed/Jazz Britannia miniboom, Which leaves hope that it will be sustained when that inevitably subsides.

Sorry...this thread is supposed to be about relocating to the UK. Maybe it will give another reason to make that move!

[sheldonm]

We do have big congestion problems there!

...Sal lives in Chicago, he's used to congestion!

[sal]

Wow.....thank you for all the helpful responses!

I didn't realize this, but it sounds like living in London is even more expensive than living in the middle of Chicago!

There is no way I would be able to afford a 1000 pound/month apartment, especially if the exchange rates hover around where they are right now.

Moving out to the countryside is definitely an option I would consider, especially if a reasonable commute to work is possible. Are these places still relatively accessible to central London? I guess that by living in the Chicago area for all of my 27 years on this planet, I've been spoiled by having access to the perks of the big city (music, food, museums, culture, etc.), and I really wouldn't want to live somewhere where getting to the city is too difficult or time consuming. But living in the countryside sounds very nice! I actually prefer it quiet. I didn't realize this was an option.

tonym, to answer your question.....if I were to return to the States, the chances of me recovering my former lifestyle would be very good. I would be leaving the majority of my valuables here, and I have a small amount of money I inherited after my mother died that I would be able to use as a down payment on a condo or small house upon my return. However, if everything works out and I really enjoy it in England and Europe in general, I would not hesitate to buy some property after a year or two, ship all of my possessions over, and make my permanent home there. I am keeping all my options open. Its very exciting!

Edited February 18, 2005 by sal

[A Lark Ascending]

We do have big congestion problems there!

...Sal lives in Chicago, he's used to congestion!

I'm talking about the motorways between cities. In the UK you can be stuck in tailbacks in the middle of nowhere!

[tonym]

Well Sal, I have friends around here who commute to London. They may not work a full week (ie. 5/6 days) but they get work done on the train from York. The countryside around the Vale of York is beautiful and the journey in on InterCity takes about 2 hours on an average day. Be prepared for delays now and again though. Depending upon how flexible your employer is, you may find a big commute is the way to go; making full use of your 'Southern' salary against the cost of 'Northern' living. B-)

[Gary]

'Northern' living?

Sssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh nobody mention the weather up there !

[sidewinder]

Bath is just about commutable from London (about 2 hours away by train, to the West). B-)

Don't listen to those Northerners..

Edited February 18, 2005 by sidewinder

[tonym]

Gary, you've moved!!!!

BTW notice how many UK members are on now:hehe:

[A Lark Ascending]

'Northern' living?

Sssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh nobody mention the weather up there !

Or the mushy peas they make you eat with your fish and chips!

(I'm a Southerner who's been doing missionary work in the North since 1978).

(P.S. Bath is fabulous - much pleasanter than London!)

Edited February 18, 2005 by Bev Stapleton

[tonym]

'Northern' living?

Sssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh nobody mention the weather up there !

Or the mushy peas they make you eat with your fish and chips!

(I'm a Southerner who's been doing missionary work in the North since 1978).

Aaah , Bless you kind one. It's needed.

[sidewinder]

and I'm a Northener who has been doing missionary work in the South since 1975 (really !)

[A Lark Ascending]

and I'm a Northener who has been doing missionary work in the South since 1975 (really !)

Bet you've 'gone native'! I havn't!

[sidewinder]

'fraid so... no talk of flat caps, whippets and mushy peas round here for a long time now

[sal]

A question to narrow down my quieries ......

What would be some good "countryside" locations to investigate that would not be too far from the Hemel/Sunbury/London area? Is it possible to live in a quiet, somewhat scenic area that is somewhat affordable, yet still be within an hour or so from this area? Its not looking like I'm going to be able to afford living in central London.

[sidewinder]

Sal - from Hemel you could look at places in the Chilterns such as Aylesbury and the Beaconsfield area. Some pretty nice villages and small towns around there and within booting distance from London for the occasional jazz. It's to the SW of Hemel.

A bit further afield and to the East and NE of Hemel you have the countryside in Suffolk, which Bev mentioned earlier. Much quieter than London and picturesque - a lot of Londoners have second homes up there or have decamped permanently.

The problem I think with areas to the West such as Bath would be getting through London on the train. I suspect that you would have to get to Paddington then tube to Euston or Kings Cross for the Hemel train. A logistic nightmare.

North and East of London is probably best for this location.