*** Frank Zappa ***

[DatDere]

The ZFT had also promised to have 'Trance-Fusion' on sale during the gigs initially, but that announcement also mysteriously disappeared from the Z site, a few days before the tour started. Anyway, take all their promises with a huge amount of salt until you actually have the product in your own hands. The Roxy footage they showed was great btw, Montana and a nice extended version of Dupree's Paradise.

[Rooster_Ties]

I saw Brock (and Ike Willis too) guesting with the Zappa tribute band Project/Object a couple years ago here in KC, and all involved were pretty close to amazing. Willis is a monster singer ( always has been, in my book), and Brock was impressive too.

If this new group comes to town (with Brock primarily on lead vocals), I'll sure try like heck to catch 'em. Should be a good time, all around.

[Sundog]

FYI- Good interview with Dweezil in the August "Guitar Player" now on newstands. Also, a nice spread on some of Frank's guitars.

[Chuck Nessa]

After all this time I have to butt in and say Frank's music has always seemed to be "smart-ass frat boy" stuff by someone misunderstanding the "real deal". AND he was a real asshole in person.

This is what happens when "universal literacy" reaches the masses.

He was a bright guy without inspiration IMHO - just like the kid next door.

[GregK]

After all this time I have to butt in and say Frank's music has always seemed to be "smart-ass frat boy" stuff by someone misunderstanding the "real deal". AND he was a real asshole in person.

Harsh. Did you know him? What's that based on?

[Chuck Nessa]

After all this time I have to butt in and say Frank's music has always seemed to be "smart-ass frat boy" stuff by someone misunderstanding the "real deal". AND he was a real asshole in person.

Harsh. Did you know him? What's that based on?

It is based on my personal understanding of music and the value system commonly accepted/adopted (by me at least). I had a nasty personal relationship with him and still don't like his music. Had "nasty relationships" with a few other artists and still love their work.

Please advise me of his "masterwork" so I can see/hear what I missed.

[BFrank]

Chuck, have you heard "Grand Wazoo" or "Waka/Jawaka"?

[Chuck Nessa]

Chuck, have you heard "Grand Wazoo" or "Waka/Jawaka"?

Only a gazillion times.

[JSngry]

I'm pretty much w/Chuck on this, except that I still enjoy the work of the "original" Mothers (up to and including the Burnt Weenie-era large group). But ti seems to me that the inability of that band to break through brought Zappa's cynicism to the fore and that it then became the main element of even his most "serious" work. And that just does not appeal to me.

Frustration's a bitch, I know, but...

[Rooster_Ties]

For me the glass is definitely half full, at least.

Yes, Zappa was an asshole. So was Frank Lloyd Wright. So too was Miles (at least quite often). We could fill thread after thread with the names of great artistic folks (note, I didn't say brilliant), who were also real jerks.

Much of Zappa's music moves me quite a lot -- both the actual recorded artifacts themselves, AND the tunes (compositions), and their lasting value in the world. Given a few moments (that I won't spend here and now), I'm sure I could easily mention 20 or more Zappa tunes right off the top of my head that I still take great delight in singing along with (and not so much in singing just the straight vocal parts, but rather those plus the instrumental fills betweeen the vocal lines -- that's where Zappa so often gets really interesting for me.)

Many of those tunes are "standards" to me -- tunes that have stood the test of time for me.

Yes, there certainly are some frat-boy aspects to Frank -- some of which one can easily take or leave (some of which I tire of too, to be sure). But it's those tunes , plus the musicianship of many of the bands he put together. THAT'S what has me sold.

Frank in the early 80's doesn't really do it much for me, sure. But most of the rest of the Zappa catalog is something I revisit quite frequently. Every four or five years or so, I so to go through a brand new Zappa phase -- where I rediscover a body of music that really has left it's mark on the world -- or at least on me.

I would even probably argue that Frank is one of the top-100 most interesting musicians of the entire 20th Century. Some years I might rank him in my top 50. Some years in the bottom 50. But he's always there in my list, somewhere.

The glass is definitely half full for me, and often quite half full - almost to overflowing.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

Has anyone else here heard Civilization Phase III???

That may Frank's magnum opus, IMHO.

[Joe G]

I'm pretty much w/Chuck on this, except that I still enjoy the work of the "original" Mothers (up to and including the Burnt Weenie-era large group). But ti seems to me that the inability of that band to break through brought Zappa's cynicism to the fore and that it then became the main element of even his most "serious" work. And that just does not appeal to me.

Frustration's a bitch, I know, but...

On a road trip with Randy once, he played Yellow Shark for me, and I couldn't get past that very perception. It just did not sit well with me. As for the other Zappa I've heard, there are elements I can appreciate, but the "spirit" of his music simply doesn't resonate with me either.

[dave9199]

I just heard We're Only In It... over the weekend. I was quite taken with how melodic the songs are and all in spite of the quirkiness that is Zappa. It's really good. I also heard Freak Out, but it didn't hit me as much as We're Only In It did. Also listened to Captain beefheart for the first time. That's pretty good also. Started with an easier one; Safe As Milk.

[take5]

I went through a hardcore Zappa phase but have backed off a bit.

It took me a long time and a lot of listening to reach this conclusion: Zappa was a supremely talented guy who didn't respect his own music enough.

God, how often it is that I'm listening to some Zappa and the band is jamming out some awesome tune (vocals or no vocals) and then they chime in with their stupid jokes and screw it all up. B Wana Dik. ram it up you poop shoot... HAR HAR... whatever.

I still like some of his stuff a lot... One Size Fits All is the perfect album of cool songs, great composition, killer performance, and yes, comedy as part of the music. Overnite Sensation is cool but then that stupid Dinah Moe Hum ruins the whole thing. I'm not PC or anything, but come on... bovine perspiration? I'm not offended 'cause it's insulting to women, I'm offended because he thinks it'll make me, a person older than 12, laugh.

There's just this attitude like he doesn't give a shit. "Oh, I could just throw some stupid words on top of this bullshit" or whatever... like it's all a big joke to him. One popular theory is that he was frustrated at not being able to be a "composer," so he "had" to do rock music. Well I don't know if that's true but it would sure explain why he insults his own music.

I happen to be listening to Charles Mingus now, someone who is often described similarly to Zappa- composer, brilliant band leader and discoverer of talent, mad genius, quirky, kind of a jerk, pigheaded, etc. But I can *feel* the love and awe that Mingus has with the art he's producing. He really pours his heart into it, putting himself out there, while Zappa is just constantly saying "fuck you and fuck me," which can be entertaining at times, but is ultimately empty.

[Free For All]

I'm still a fan, but more for the great ensemble playing and soloing than the lyrics, many of which aren't aging real well.

Trombonist Bruce Fowler does some amazing playing on one of my favorite sides, Roxy and Elsewhere. He is a MF!

Both he and George Duke have some great moments on that one. Bebop Tango, Village of the Sun, Don't You Ever Wash That Thing et al.

A couple other choice moments: Yo Cats, the "tribute" to studio musicians from Meets the Mothers of Prevention , and also the one the Brecker Bros. were on- Purple Lagoon or something like that.

I still enjoy pulling out the Zappa, but a little does go a long way.

[Д.Д.]

I went through a hardcore Zappa phase but have backed off a bit.

It took me a long time and a lot of listening to reach this conclusion: Zappa was a supremely talented guy who didn't respect his own music enough.

God, how often it is that I'm listening to some Zappa and the band is jamming out some awesome tune (vocals or no vocals) and then they chime in with their stupid jokes and screw it all up. B Wana Dik. ram it up you poop shoot... HAR HAR... whatever.

I still like some of his stuff a lot... One Size Fits All is the perfect album of cool songs, great composition, killer performance, and yes, comedy as part of the music. Overnite Sensation is cool but then that stupid Dinah Moe Hum ruins the whole thing. I'm not PC or anything, but come on... bovine perspiration? I'm not offended 'cause it's insulting to women, I'm offended because he thinks it'll make me, a person older than 12, laugh.

There's just this attitude like he doesn't give a shit. "Oh, I could just throw some stupid words on top of this bullshit" or whatever... like it's all a big joke to him. One popular theory is that he was frustrated at not being able to be a "composer," so he "had" to do rock music. Well I don't know if that's true but it would sure explain why he insults his own music.

I happen to be listening to Charles Mingus now, someone who is often described similarly to Zappa- composer, brilliant band leader and discoverer of talent, mad genius, quirky, kind of a jerk, pigheaded, etc. But I can *feel* the love and awe that Mingus has with the art he's producing. He really pours his heart into it, putting himself out there, while Zappa is just constantly saying "fuck you and fuck me," which can be entertaining at times, but is ultimately empty.

If he didn't respect his own music, why would he rehearse his band for 8 months before going on a tour? I also don't feel Zappa's live guitar solos are particualrly "fuck me" or empty or non-invovled either.

I do think there are certain problems with Zappa's "lite" music, which IMO come from his fundamental underestimation and misuderstnding of his core fan base.

As for Zappa being an asshole, this is the veiw expressed by a few (not all) of the first-generation MOI members. For whatever reason all the musicians from his later bands tend to talk about FZ in delighted terms exclusively. FZ definitely didn't punch any of his musicians in the face...

[Rooster_Ties]

If he didn't respect his own music, why would he rehearse his band for 8 months before going on a tour??

Word.

[take5]

I don't know... that's actually kind of my point. He put so much effort into composing (which includes his soloing) and rehearsing and finding the best talent... and then so many times it sounds like just shits on it. It's not always but it's enough to make me wary of putting some Zappa on.

Maybe he was afraid of seeming pretentious. Maybe he would be bored on the road without heaping piles of juvenile "humor" on it.

Roxy & Elsewhere was mentioned and it's a pretty good example- when the band is playing, holy crap, watch out, awesome! But then there's some "sketch" about smoking a diploma and ordering room service that goes on forever and then a 15 minute visual gag- on a record!- to end it all.

And don't even get me started on the Volman/Kaylan era, or Thing Fish.

[Guest akanalog]

agree about roxy and elsewhere. what a frustrating album-why add all that crap? i guess you guys are right-he misunderstood his fanbase. you know there was better material to put on that CD.

it won't sway chuck-but as far as jazz fusion goes-i think the petite wazoo touring band was pretty cool though maybe a little awkward (zappa and studio guys...) and the subsequent 73 smaller group (with the underwoods, and two fowlers, and ponty and duke and just ralph humphrey on drums-that was a great great mostly instrumental group). the following band with napoleon brock and chester thompson was good to, but getting a little too into vocal goofiness.

burnt weenie sandwich is cool-but most of the stuff before and after the music i mention doesn't do it for me.

also why the hell did they pick that show for YCDTOS vol. 2? that is like the worst "dupree's paradise" i have heard-half of it is a drum solo! very disappointing.

the band with bozzio and that new age o'hearn guy on bass was pretty cool when andre lewis was on keyboards and they kept it mostly intstrumental, but even by then (1976?) the song selection was lacking. even the guitar set pieces (zoot allures and torture never stops) were kinda boring compared to songs like inca roads or duprees. but andre lewis brought a weird and poor-fitting funky keyboard sound to the group which was intresting for a little bit.

[dave9199]

I really am enjoying We're Only In It For The Money. It's much more melodic than I thought Zappa would be (this is the first album I've heard by him). Some of the song structures remind me of the soundtrack to Jesus Christ Superstar. My brother had that album and there are still songs from that album I think are great: What's The Buzz, I Don't Know How To Love Him, Everything's Alright, King Herod's Song, Jesus Christ Superstar. Some favorites from Zappa'a album are: Who Needs The Peace Corps?, Concentration Moon (espicially the Gotta go bye-bye part), Mom & Dad, Absolutely Free, Flower Punk, Let's Make The Water Turn Black (in particular the piano run at the beginning), The Idiot Bastard Son, Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance, The Ugliest Part Of your Body (the lyrics threw me on this one, fantastic bit of lyric writing), & Mother People. That's about half the album.

Edited July 21, 2006 by dave9199

[Д.Д.]

I really am enjoying We're Only In It For The Money. It's much more melodic than I thought Zappa would be (this is the first album I've heard by him). Some of the song structures remind me of the soundtrack to Jesus Christ Superstar. My brother had that album and there are still songs from that album I think are great: What's The Buzz, I Don't Know How To Love Him, Everything's Alright, King Herod's Song, Jesus Christ Superstar. Some favorites from Zappa'a album are: Who Needs The Peace Corps?, Concentration Moon (espicially the Gotta go bye-bye part), Mom & Dad, Absolutely Free, Flower Punk, Let's Make The Water Turn Black (in particular the piano run at the beginning), The Idiot Bastard Son, Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance, The Ugliest Part Of your Body (the lyrics threw me on this one, fantastic bit of lyric writing), & Mother People. That's about half the album.

We're Only In It For the Money has some of Zappa's best melodies, IMO. You might wanna check out Make a Jazz Noise Here, a '88 live recording that contians an excellent instrumental medley of We're Only in It for the Money tunes.

[7/4]

[BFrank]

EXCELLENT!

[Hot Ptah]

I had always imagined that Neon Park, the artist, had dreamed up the entire image for that cover, out of his imagination.

[Hot Ptah]

After all this time I have to butt in and say Frank's music has always seemed to be "smart-ass frat boy" stuff by someone misunderstanding the "real deal". AND he was a real asshole in person.

Harsh. Did you know him? What's that based on?

It is based on my personal understanding of music and the value system commonly accepted/adopted (by me at least). I had a nasty personal relationship with him and still don't like his music. Had "nasty relationships" with a few other artists and still love their work.

Please advise me of his "masterwork" so I can see/hear what I missed.

To me, if he has a "masterwork", it is Uncle Meat--in the original LP version, (not the CD version with the really long, unlistenable film dialogue plunked down in the middle).

It may not be a masterwork on the level of the great masterworks of world musical history.