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Clem=complete fucking joke

Disagree, I think. While I often don't "get" his posts, and often don't agree with them when I do get them, I find them passionate, thought out, and worth reading. To quote Clem himself, when I read his postings, I come away with "equal degrees of admiration and bafflement". And I did appreciate that he was able to get through two long posts this morning without once using the f*&% bomb!

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Clem=complete fucking joke

Disagree, I think. While I often don't "get" his posts, and often don't agree with them when I do get them, I find them passionate, thought out, and worth reading. To quote Clem himself, when I read his postings, I come away with "equal degrees of admiration and bafflement". And I did appreciate that he was able to get through two long posts this morning without once using the f*&% bomb!

As they say, mileage varies, but the final straws are:

his outrageous attack on Lon a day or two ago

that ridiculously ignorant "list"

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If you really must have the "most important black people/black Americans of all time" discussion (which, for the record I think is fundamentally misguided, but no time to go there), I think there are a few things that need to be set straight in order to make the conversation somewhat meaningful and to minimize the risk of the project becoming offensive.

First, what makes a person "important"?

Second, what makes a black person in particular "important"? Are there different criteria for blacks in particular? If so, why?

Third, important to who? Americans? Humans in general? Other blacks? (For instance, if the answer is "Americans," you might have a better argument for J Robinson than if the answer is "humans in general.')

Fourth, are we really talking all time?

This isn't a conversation I mean to encourage, but if it's going to happen, then I think that these issues have to be addressed.

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If you really must have the "most important black people/black Americans of all time" discussion (which, for the record I think is fundamentally misguided, but no time to go there), I think there are a few things that need to be set straight in order to make the conversation somewhat meaningful and to minimize the risk of the project becoming offensive.

First, what makes a person "important"?

Second, what makes a black person in particular "important"? Are there different criteria for blacks in particular? If so, why?

Third, important to who? Americans? Humans in general? Other blacks? (For instance, if the answer is "Americans," you might have a better argument for J Robinson than if the answer is "humans in general.')

Fourth, are we really talking all time?

This isn't a conversation I mean to encourage, but if it's going to happen, then I think that these issues have to be addressed.

I also have no need for the " five most important" discussion, but I think the "what makes a person important" question is pretty fascinating.

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I agree with that, except that I think you have to answer the "important to who" question first.

It's when you get to ranking unquantifiable items that I lose interest (and in this case, it also seems rather distasteful to me). I think we may be in agreement on that point as well.

Edited by J Larsen
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My $.02, for what it's worth:

No question that JB was one of the greatest American musical figures, black or white. His influence is felt far and wide. There might have been Funk, Disco, and Hip Hop without JB, but they would have been the poorer for it. As I said, JB is up there with Duke and Pops when it comes to major American musicians.

One of the top five black Americans? Ummmmmmmmm...no.

Any list of top five black Americans has to start with MLK (not only the most important African American of the 20th century, King was the most important AMERICAN of the 20th cent, full stop). From there, we must include authors and thinkers and then political figures. Pop cultural figures, for all their influence on what we hear and see, come waaaaaay down on the list. I would say that Martin Luther King or Thurgood Marshall is worth ten Ellington's and a HUNDRED James Browns. And anyone who puts fictional characters (Shaft? Superfly??) on such a list isn't worth talking to.

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Pop cultural figures, for all their influence on what we hear and see, come waaaaaay down on the list. I would say that Martin Luther King or Thurgood Marshall is worth ten Ellington's and a HUNDRED James Browns.

What about the possibility of a symbotic relationship between music & community that might allow, for example, somebody like Ellington to profoundly impact, either directly or indirectly, how somebody like King or Marshall views themself and their place in society, which in turn determines how they then interact with and impact society? Not all cultures (or subcultures) have that symbiotic relationship in equal measure, so evaluating it by a one-size-fits-all scale might not yield accurate results.

"5 Most Important"? Lists & rankings? No thanks. Anything that limits is ultimately going to be false, so, uh....no. But was James Brown "important" on a level beyond that of "pop cultural figure"? Oh hell yeah.

Up front, let me say this about Brown as a "musician" - he himself was a very musically limited person when it came to the technical - basic technical - aspects of putting together what he did. We had a bit of this discussion over in the other JB thread. The guy pretty much communicated "impulses" to his bandleaders, and they fleshed it out to a workable form. His organ playing, if you listen closely, is the sound of somebody knowing just enough to make it almost sound like they kind of know what they're doing. There was little or none of the intuitive genius of craftsmanship that you find in somebody like Robert Johnson in Brown. So to claim status for Brown as a "musician" by "traditional standards", Euro- or Afro-centric, is going out on a limb.

But that's not why him or his music is so important.

What's ultimately important is that he was able to tap into something deep, something at once primal and profound, something of damn near otherwordly power, and channel it in such a pure, unblocked, and unhindered form for so long. What it was he was tapped into you may or may not want to consider "spiritual", but it definitely dealt with spirit - human spirits dealing with things like pride, power, and place. And he did it in such a way and in such a time/place that it had an inestimable impact on a lot of people all over the world (we're so busy looking at JB's impact on American music & culture that we're overlooking the same impact that he had in Africa, which was not insignificant) in ways that went beyond merely providing a "soundtrack for their lives" or some such. The guy made a deep impact on the minds, and therefore the actions, of a lot of people who were taking a lot of actions that profoundly impacted a lot of the world. "Soundtracks" are one thing, but fuel is another, and I'll argue that Brown provided as much fuel for the global "Black Nationalism" movement of the 1960s as did anybody, since the purpose of fuel is to unleash potential energy and turn it into kinetic energy. James Brown provided a whole lot of fuel at a time when need for and consumption of same both appeared endless.

What I'm trying to say is that "James Brown" was a helluva lot bigger than just James Brown. When he himself either realized this or forgot it (your call which, and I'll not argue either way), it was over, rapidly & irrevocably, although in the end he was able to have a respectable enough rebirth as a "cultural icon". But Cultural Icon is a step or few thousand down the ladder from Unstoppable Force Of Nature Directly Impacting Human Destiny, which is a position that he onece occupied, and occupied well for a significant amount of time.

If you weren't there, you can be forgiven for not understanding. If you were there but have forgotten, you can be forgiven for letting time take its toll. But if you were there & never got it in the first place, you have no excuse.

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Pop cultural figures, for all their influence on what we hear and see, come waaaaaay down on the list. I would say that Martin Luther King or Thurgood Marshall is worth ten Ellington's and a HUNDRED James Browns.

What about the possibility of a symbotic relationship between music & community that might allow, for example, somebody like Ellington to profoundly impact, either directly or indirectly, how somebody like King or Marshall views themself and their place in society, which in turn determines how they then interact with and impact society? Not all cultures (or subcultures) have that symbiotic relationship in equal measure, so evaluating it by a one-size-fits-all scale might not yield accurate results.

"5 Most Important"? Lists & rankings? No thanks. Anything that limits is ultimately going to be false, so, uh....no. But was James Brown "important" on a level beyond that of "pop cultural figure"? Oh hell yeah.

Up front, let me say this about Brown as a "musician" - he himself was a very musically limited person when it came to the technical - basic technical - aspects of putting together what he did. We had a bit of this discussion over in the other JB thread. The guy pretty much communicated "impulses" to his bandleaders, and they fleshed it out to a workable form. His organ playing, if you listen closely, is the sound of somebody knowing just enough to make it almost sound like they kind of know what they're doing. There was little or none of the intuitive genius of craftsmanship that you find in somebody like Robert Johnson in Brown. So to claim status for Brown as a "musician" by "traditional standards", Euro- or Afro-centric, is going out on a limb.

But that's not why him or his music is so important.

What's ultimately important is that he was able to tap into something deep, something at once primal and profound, something of damn near otherwordly power, and channel it in such a pure, unblocked, and unhindered form for so long. What it was he was tapped into you may or may not want to consider "spiritual", but it definitely dealt with spirit - human spirits dealing with things like pride, power, and place. And he did it in such a way and in such a time/place that it had an inestimable impact on a lot of people all over the world (we're so busy looking at JB's impact on American music & culture that we're overlooking the same impact that he had in Africa, which was not insignificant) in ways that went beyond merely providing a "soundtrack for their lives" or some such. The guy made a deep impact on the minds, and therefore the actions, of a lot of people who were taking a lot of actions that profoundly impacted a lot of the world. "Soundtracks" are one thing, but fuel is another, and I'll argue that Brown provided as much fuel for the global "Black Nationalism" movement of the 1960s as did anybody, since the purpose of fuel is to unleash potential energy and turn it into kinetic energy. James Brown provided a whole lot of fuel at a time when need for and consumption of same both appeared endless.

What I'm trying to say is that "James Brown" was a helluva lot bigger than just James Brown. When he himself either realized this or forgot it (your call which, and I'll not argue either way), it was over, rapidly & irrevocably, although in the end he was able to have a respectable enough rebirth as a "cultural icon". But Cultural Icon is a step or few thousand down the ladder from Unstoppable Force Of Nature Directly Impacting Human Destiny, which is a position that he onece occupied, and occupied well for a significant amount of time.

If you weren't there, you can be forgiven for not understanding. If you were there but have forgotten, you can be forgiven for letting time take its toll. But if you were there & never got it in the first place, you have no excuse.

BRAVO JIM !

...... this post SHOWS why it's great to have a guy like Jim Sangrey around. He can verbalize it and get right to the real point.

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As Jim so eloquently points out, JB represented a lot more than just music to a lot of people. He was(and is) a source of pride, an example to many about hard work(and he came by his title as 'hardest workin' man in show business' by EARNING it), and a guy who was hugely successful doing things his way. You have to keep in mind that JB was succesful in an era where Jim Crow was very much alive, where civil rights legislation was either embryonic or recently passed(and regularly ignored in many parts of the country).

For all of that, JB's impact went way beyond music in ways that many non-black people could probably never fully understand. I'm white and I get only a bit of what he meant to black people. Imagine being at the bottom of the social ladder and here comes a guy who's big, worldwide and doesn't shuffle, doesn't kowtow to the powers that be- what a guy that is!

"We'd rather die on our feet than keep living on our knees" JB

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Imagine being at the bottom of the social ladder and here comes a guy who's big, worldwide and doesn't shuffle, doesn't kowtow to the powers that be- what a guy that is!

"We'd rather die on our feet than keep living on our knees" JB

Imagine a bold motherfucker begging you to hit him, letting out a bloodcurdling scream when you do, and then going on stronger and prouder than before.

You think that didn't resonate?

Not saying that that was what that was consciously about, but you think that it didn't resonate anyway?

And that's just aurally. We're still focusing on the records. If you ever get a chance to see the 1968 Boston WGBH footage ini ts entirety...

http://www.thephoenix.com/article_ektid25546.aspx

http://www.thephoenix.com/OnTheDownload/Pe...d5-f817a94a8d16

Fuck the "iconic" (i.e. "safe") T.A.M.I. shit (but do it well and do it with love). This is the real deal.

Pop culture my ass...

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My intro to JB was "The T.A.M.I. Show," which I saw when it came out in a funky NYC theater where the audience was split -- both in terms of numbers and where people sat -- right down the middle. As I recall, JB in great form was the film's penultimate act, followed by The Rolling Stones. The perceived indignity of this on the part of one half of the crowd was such that bottles were hurled at and punctured the screen, and the film, I think, was halted before the Stones' portion was over. Don't know whether further uproar followed; I left at that point.

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My intro to JB was "The T.A.M.I. Show," which I saw when it came out in a funky NYC theater where the audience was split -- both in terms of numbers and where people sat -- right down the middle. As I recall, JB in great form was the film's penultimate act, followed by The Rolling Stones. The perceived indignity of this on the part of one half of the crowd was such that bottles were hurled at and punctured the screen, and the film, I think, was halted before the Stones' portion was over. Don't know whether further uproar followed; I left at that point.

That's what I'd call real criticism.

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James Brown's powerful message during the mid/late sixties helped transform the Black youth of the day, and white people's perception of them. Stuck it right in their face.

Now we demand a chance to do things for ourself

We're tired of beatin' our head against the wall

And workin' for someone else

We're people, we're just like the birds and the bees

We'd rather die on our feet

Than be livin' on our knees

Say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud

No argument on that point here.

brown_james_sayitloud_101b.jpg

Edited by marcello
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JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

All "the top 5 black people" aren't/were not entertainers, athletes and/or Americans. Just because you don't know their names doesn't mean that they have not profoundly impacted the world.

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JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

All "the top 5 black people" aren't/were not entertainers, athletes and/or Americans. Just because you don't know their names doesn't mean that they have not profoundly impacted the world.

Absolutely. And this is why Clem doesn't have a fucking clue. Importance doesn't come from "empowerment." James Brown made black people feel good about themselves. That's fantastic, no sarcasim intended. But James Brown had less than no influence over the way black people were treated on a day to day level. For that, you have to turn to a Martin Luther King, Jr. who put his neck on the line over and over again to procure that liberty for ALL of us. You have to turn to a Thurgood Marshall who sat on the highest court in the land and made the decisions that helped open the door for a generation of American blacks. Civil Rights may have been, on some level, about the right for blacks to feel like human beings, but feeling good and being able to vote aren't on the same freaking level. Was JB a great man? No question. Does he deserve our great love and respect? Of course. Did he single handedly change the world? No, he did not. No more than Ronald Reagan tore down the Berlin Wall by saying, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall." There's a big difference between the talk and the walk. JB talked the talk all his life. But even he would admit that he left it to others to walk the walk (unless you can point to JB's arrests during sit-ins).

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*

Pop cultural figures, for all their influence on what we hear and see, come waaaaaay down on the list. I would say that Martin Luther King or Thurgood Marshall is worth ten Ellington's and a HUNDRED James Browns.

that's why you are a DOPE, AL & we...

we are titans.

Thurgood Marshall is an important jurist but that's pretty fucking esoteric-- if you can't feel that right off ain't no amount of book learnin' gonna fix what you lack, which is PLENTY... more than you will ever, & EVER, evvvvvvvvvvvver know.

do i need to post pictures from Harlem today to Son you? ain't worth the effort but if I can I will, just to share the love with the folks who get it.

lemme guess something also, Al--

1) yr not black

2) you do not now nor have you ever lived in the South or among those with strong Southern roots?

Not to put to fine a point on it, but that has fuck-all to do with anything. I may be white, but I happened to grow up in the inner-city (Buffalo, NY) and attended predominantly black school from first grade until my family moved to the burbs when I was in 9th grade. I went to a school where African-American kids set the pace, and I kept right up, thank you very much. All of my friends were black. I spent my lunches playing the dozens with my peers (we called it "busting"). I was listening to the Sugar Hill Gang and Grandmaster Flash when their records first started gaining national attention. Am I black? No. But it's not like I never actually saw a black person until I was an adult, either.

Don't make assumptions, Clem...

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JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

All "the top 5 black people" aren't/were not entertainers, athletes and/or Americans. Just because you don't know their names doesn't mean that they have not profoundly impacted the world.

Absolutely. And this is why Clem doesn't have a fucking clue. Importance doesn't come from "empowerment." James Brown made black people feel good about themselves. That's fantastic, no sarcasim intended. But James Brown had less than no influence over the way black people were treated on a day to day level. For that, you have to turn to a Martin Luther King, Jr. who put his neck on the line over and over again to procure that liberty for ALL of us. You have to turn to a Thurgood Marshall who sat on the highest court in the land and made the decisions that helped open the door for a generation of American blacks. Civil Rights may have been, on some level, about the right for blacks to feel like human beings, but feeling good and being able to vote aren't on the same freaking level. Was JB a great man? No question. Does he deserve our great love and respect? Of course. Did he single handedly change the world? No, he did not. No more than Ronald Reagan tore down the Berlin Wall by saying, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall." There's a big difference between the talk and the walk. JB talked the talk all his life. But even he would admit that he left it to others to walk the walk (unless you can point to JB's arrests during sit-ins).

Can't we have a holistic appreciation of all this? Yeah, people gotta walk the walk, but those who inspire the walk and the direction it takes are just as important. The walk inspired by JB was markedly different than that inspired by, say, Curtis Mayfield, and to that attention should be paid and credit given.

Again - fuel. No fuel, and what does the engine do? The fuel is not the engine, but the engine is not the fuel either. And there are many types of fuel that can produce many types of results.

Symbiosis, yin & yang, you need both, can't have a front w/o a back, the bigger the front the bigger the back.

And all that.

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James Brown made black people feel good about themselves. That's fantastic, no sarcasim intended. But James Brown had less than no influence over the way black people were treated on a day to day level.

So James Brown is basically Archie Bell & The Drells super-sized, is that what you're saying?

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he neglected to mention Major Taylor had been promoted a cpl times & was full bird Colonel when he passed... did COLONEL Taylor shave his legs like other bike race sissies? maybe.

I have no problem citing James Brown in the Top 5 Most Important or Greatest Black Americans of the 20th C, not at all.

"Major" Taylor was never in the military and was never "promoted" to colonel. And if you have any question about his masculinity maybe you should read his autobiography. It can be found in most libraries.

Secondly, the statement made by chewy was not about "the top 5 most important or greatest Black Americans of the 20th Century". Read it again, it was "the top 5 black people of all time", that covers a lot of history.

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What JB uncorked with his musical directions, rhythmic distillations & otherwise circa mid-1960s was an inversion of the Funkadelic paradigm that would come in its wake--w/JB it was "Free your ass and your mind will follow." Crudely reductive as all get-out, much more to the story (and Jsngry has made the case quite well), but all you have to do is look to what the Panthers and others were saying about him around 1968 or '69. And sure, it's ironic enough, given his later support for Nixon, Reagan, etc., but maybe not--just the affirmative, powerful individualistic streak railroading itself into the GOP's "self-made man" ideology. I've been catching some of the non-stop valorizing for Gerald Ford and I keep thinking that JB was, for awhile, the unofficial president of the "other" America--in several senses of the word.

Thanks for posting the pictures, Clem. Must have been an amazing scene.

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