Advice sought re: Coltrane's "Live Trane" set.

[Bol]

I know this will come as a heresy to some of you, but I've always felt a bit ambivalent about Coltrane -- especially his Impulse period. On the one hand I can see that he is being quite passionate and amazingly virtuosic in his playing, but he seems sorely in need of an editor who could have told him to cut things short when he starts repeating phrases over and over again.

Now, I've just ordered the "Live Trane" set issued by Pablo/Fantasy. But since ordering the set, I've re-listened to some of his Impulse recordings (same period as the set), and have come away a bit underwhelmed, at times annoyed, at times even bored. Now, I got a terrific price for the set. Do I return it?

Please let me know if you think that this live set is quite different from some of his Impulse sessions of the same period. I'm afraid of returning the set and later regretting it.

[kulu se mama]

if you can afford it - i would hang on to it.

if it's a matter of money, alot of it can sound a bit "samey" after awhile.

[Guy Berger]

If you don't like Coltrane, you won't like this box. I would say that in general this box is less essential than 50-70% of the Impulse material.

The Impulse stuff (even the live material) generally aimed at producing album-worthy material. The Pablo box was "just" Trane and his group exploring in a live setting. One is about product, the other one is about process. That's the key difference.

Guy

[sal]

Like kulu se mama said, if you really, really need the money, then return it.

Otherwise, given the fact that you said you got a good price, even if you haven't warmed up to trane yet, I'd keep it. This is some incredible music, and if one day you all of a sudden start hearing a special "something" in trane's music that you haven't heard before, you won't want to be without this stuff.

For my money, trane at the peak of his powers as he is here is quite simply some of the most amazing recorded music in the history of the world. Here's hoping that at some point, that it works for you. Trane is a universe of wonder and joy.

[Guy Berger]

If you do decide to spend time with this box, I would start with the 1963 material. It's the best stuff in the box.

Guy

[Scott Dolan]

If you don't like Coltrane, you won't like this box.

Agreed. Once the Classic Quartet was set, the music didn't make any drastic changes. I feel it got progressively better, but not really that different from where it started out.

I would say that in general this box is less essential than 50-70% of the Impulse material.

When I first read this statement I thought, "nahhhh". But actually you're right. Even with the better sound quality (everything in mono, thank god) over the individual cd's, it's still not as good as most of the Impulse! releases.

Bol, my largest collection is Coltrane. My advice would be to send it back. If you're lukewarm on what they were doing at that time, this isn't one that will eventually win you over, and could possibly hinder any future enjoyment you may get from Coltranes music. Send it back and pick up either First Meditations, Transition, or Sun Ship. This was the Quartet at it's absolute finest in '65 before they split. If any of his material wins you over, this would be it, IMO.

[Bol]

Thanks, everyone. I shall mull over your advices, and decide in a couple of days, and let you know!!

[Guy Berger]

If you don't like Coltrane, you won't like this box.

Agreed. Once the Classic Quartet was set, the music didn't make any drastic changes. I feel it got progressively better, but not really that different from where it started out.

I agree with the first half of Scott's statement in that Coltrane's music didn't experience any sudden jumps between November of 1961 and, say, December of 1964. There was a more rapid evolution from from 10/60 to 11/61 and again from 12/64 to 9/65.

I think the big difference in Coltrane's music during the '62-'64 period (and I owe this observation to Ed Rhodes) is between live and studio. His studio recordings during this period tended to be more conservative, his live recordings more exploratory.

Guy

Edited January 23, 2007 by Guy

[Scott Dolan]

Yeah Guy, I can't count how many times I've read about how disappointed some of his fans were when a new studio album would come out because what they were doing live at that same point in time was lightyears beyond.

I think the main reason the '65 material sounds the way it does is because they finally brought that live intensity into the studio.

And I take it from your comments that you disagree about '65 being their best year?

[kh1958]

I think you would be better off with The Village Vanguard set and Live at Birdland, if you don't have them already, as opposed to the Live Trane box set. The VV and Birdland sets are more accessible, and much better recorded.

[Guy Berger]

I think the main reason the '65 material sounds the way it does is because they finally brought that live intensity into the studio.

Yup!

And I take it from your comments that you disagree about '65 being their best year?

No... I think '65 is my favorite.

Guy

[Scott Dolan]

I think you would be better off with The Village Vanguard set and Live at Birdland, if you don't have them already, as opposed to the Live Trane box set. The VV and Birdland sets are more accessible, and much better recorded.

If Bol thinks that Coltrane needed an "editor", I don't think the Vanguard set would sit very well with him. Although, I agree with you on Live At Birdland, which I was just listening to this morning. Your Lady, what a brilliant tune!!!

Bol, one more suggestion I would make is Ballads. Low key, and all the tunes are in the 3-4 minute range. It's an incredibly beautiful album.

[sal]

I think you would be better off with The Village Vanguard set and Live at Birdland, if you don't have them already, as opposed to the Live Trane box set. The VV and Birdland sets are more accessible, and much better recorded.

If Bol thinks that Coltrane needed an "editor", I don't think the Vanguard set would sit very well with him. Although, I agree with you on Live At Birdland, which I was just listening to this morning. Your Lady, what a brilliant tune!!!

Bol, one more suggestion I would make is Ballads. Low key, and all the tunes are in the 3-4 minute range. It's an incredibly beautiful album.

If Bol thinks Trane needed an editor, would anything on Impulse, or from that whole era, work?

Strangely, I've always found Trane to be one of the only guys who could still sound intresting after all those choruses. His ideas never ended, and they were almost always good ideas!

[Scott Dolan]

If Bol thinks Trane needed an editor, would anything on Impulse, or from that whole era, work?

Yes.

Ballads.

Crescent.

[RDK]

I've recommended The Gentle Side of Coltrane to a number of people with good success. Even my dad - who's more the Welk type - digs it.

[felser]

I think the main reason the '65 material sounds the way it does is because they finally brought that live intensity into the studio.

Yup!

And I take it from your comments that you disagree about '65 being their best year?

No... I think '65 is my favorite.

Guy

I'll take '64, short on quantity but long on classic quality ('Crescent', 'A Love Supreme'). Bol should start with 'Crescent' and 'Live at Birdland'. From '65, I LOVE 'Transition', which I think is the most overlooked Trane album of all. How did it ever get left in the can for several years? (rhetoricl question, I know there was a glut of material recorded in '65 and they wanted to publically document his new phase).

[Scott Dolan]

Bol should start with 'Crescent' and 'Live at Birdland'.

Yes to both. Though I still think Live At Birdland may be lost on him because of the lenghty solos. Although, if any tune in the Coltrane catalog would change his mind, it would certainly be the most brilliant version of Afro Blue ever recorded that opens up that disc.

I'll take '64, short on quantity but long on classic quality ('Crescent', 'A Love Supreme').

I don't think there is any question that the two '64 albums are of the highest quality, but do you honestly think they are superior to the '65 output? If you love Transition, how can you not equally love Sun Ship? And I still feel that First Meditations was the absolute pinnacle of the Classic Quartet. And his very best My Favorite Things was the version that appears on New Thing At Newport.

Of course, I'm not trying to challenge you here, and I hope you don't take it that way. Tastes vary, and whether you're talking '64 or '65, you can't go wrong either way.

And the more I listen, the more I truly think his music went terribly downhill after '65. Though Live At The Village Vanguard Again! was truly a gem, most of the late Coltrane material was tedious and outrageous. The Olatunji Concert was awesome for the playing, but the sound quality.......oy..........The rest of the '66-'67 material was just short of a travesty. Live In Japan was a mess, and I still haven't come to terms with Interstellar Space. Rashied just wasn't happening for me at that stage. But I will admit that his turn on Gayle's Touchin' On Trane was brilliant.

But since we're talking Coltrane (one of my favorite subjects), any thoughts on Live In Seattle? That one has grown on me quite a bit over the years.

[Scott Dolan]

Damn!

I hope folks like medjuck and mommy are paying attention. I believe I've posted more about music than anything else today.

[JSngry]

If Bol thinks Trane needed an editor, would anything on Impulse, or from that whole era, work?

Yes.

Ballads.

Crescent.

And the sides w/Duke & Hartman.

'65 was an incredible year, definitely the "peak" imo, but the live stuff is even more intense than the studio stuff.

[Guy Berger]

Bol should start with 'Crescent' and 'Live at Birdland'.

Yes to both. Though I still think Live At Birdland may be lost on him because of the lenghty solos. Although, if any tune in the Coltrane catalog would change his mind, it would certainly be the most brilliant version of Afro Blue ever recorded that opens up that disc.

I'll take '64, short on quantity but long on classic quality ('Crescent', 'A Love Supreme').

I don't think there is any question that the two '64 albums are of the highest quality, but do you honestly think they are superior to the '65 output? If you love Transition, how can you not equally love Sun Ship? And I still feel that First Meditations was the absolute pinnacle of the Classic Quartet. And his very best My Favorite Things was the version that appears on New Thing At Newport.

Of course, I'm not trying to challenge you here, and I hope you don't take it that way. Tastes vary, and whether you're talking '64 or '65, you can't go wrong either way.

Scott, have you heard other live material from '65? It's all at a very high level.

And the more I listen, the more I truly think his music went terribly downhill after '65. Though Live At The Village Vanguard Again! was truly a gem, most of the late Coltrane material was tedious and outrageous. The Olatunji Concert was awesome for the playing, but the sound quality.......oy..........The rest of the '66-'67 material was just short of a travesty. Live In Japan was a mess, and I still haven't come to terms with Interstellar Space. Rashied just wasn't happening for me at that stage. But I will admit that his turn on Gayle's Touchin' On Trane was brilliant.

I disagree with you overall about the later material (especially the stuff from '67), though I agree that Live in Japan is somewhat hit and miss.

But since we're talking Coltrane (one of my favorite subjects), any thoughts on Live In Seattle? That one has grown on me quite a bit over the years.

There's the 10 minute piece, I think it's the very first one, that has some really burning collective improvisation by the saxophones.

Guy

[Face of the Bass]

I have this set and would say it's definitely not essential music, and if someone isn't a real huge Coltrane fan they have no reason to need it. I would return it if I were in your position.

As for me, I have my Coltrane phases. December tends to be my Coltrane month, when that's all I want to listen to (and I prefer the later Coltrane.) During the summer I never listen to Coltrane.

[Scott Dolan]

Scott, have you heard other live material from '65? It's all at a very high level.

As much as possible. I have every major label release with Coltrane as leader. And as I said before, My Favorite Things from New Thing At Newport is the greatest version of that tune they ever did, IMO. So yes, their live shit was on fire that year. The only thing I was getting at before is that they finally brought some of that live intensity into the studio in '65.

*edit*

Howdy, Facely. Nice to see you around these parts!

Edited January 24, 2007 by Scott Dolan

[Soulstation1]

FWIW

Emusic has the live trane set

http://www.emusic.com/album/10601/10601914.html

Edited January 24, 2007 by Soulstation1

[JSngry]

Scott, have you heard other live material from '65? It's all at a very high level.

As much as possible.

Scott, do/did you ever get into the bootleg thing? There's some 65 Trane out there that's truly a religious experience...

Edited January 24, 2007 by JSngry

[Scott Dolan]

Yeah, but only on cassette. Some buddies from around the country have sent me a variety of material.

I'm sure it's in no way a comprehensive account of the live '65 material though.