AotW - Sonny Clark - Cool Struttin'

[Nate Dorward]

7/4: No: if you have the intervals perfect in the home key, then without retuning you will have false intervals of varying kinds if you construct chords with roots on some other note than the tonic.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Nate Dorward

[BruceH]

The "orchestral" collective work of the rhythm section on the title track virtually defines hard bop IMO; not I think something that was or could have been done before that era, though I suppose you could say that certain New Orleans/Chicago recordings of the late '20s or early '30s (e.g. the Ory-Dodds "Perdido St. Blues") are analogous in some respects. In any case, that aspect of the title track is just amazing, never fails to thrill and delight. If it had been all written out, it would probably would be recognized for the masterly collective "composition" it is, but... Listen, for one thing, to Philly Joe; his groove is subtly, precisely different on every chorus, and he is not alone in this.

Thanks for the insight, Larry.

[7/4]

7/4: No: if you have the intervals perfect in the home key, then without retuning you will have false intervals of varying kinds if you construct chords with roots on some other note than the tonic.

Yeah, but the whole point of a temperament is to iron all that out so you can modulate away from the home key and it will sound more in tune.

[rdavenport]

I've sometimes thought of McClean's playing as having a slightly "sour" quality---perhaps that's the "flat" tone some of you are talking about. Frankly, I've found it interesting; one of the things that gives his playing personality.

I like the Penguin Guide's description - "menthol sharp". I think it fits - his tone blows away the cobwebs, unblocks the ears as it were.

[rdavenport]

McLean - I always find his tone too flat

By "too flat" do you mean "too dull, or boring", or are you talking about problems of pitch? If the latter, I have no complaint about Jackie, but always find Gigi Gryce too sharp. Any views on this?

I mean flat, as far as pitch is concerned. And I don't like his tone that much. I listened to the CD this afternoon, and I can hear that he plays very well, and I appreciate it, but I just don't like his sound.

I hear that Gigi Gryce is sharp, sometimes, but since I like his tone and phrasing, I don't mind. It's a personal thing: You like a player's sound and conception, or you don't.

As Ornette famously said, "You can play flat in tune and you can play sharp in tune." IMO Jackie usually plays flat in tune, especially on Blue Note; in his Prestige days a bit less so (i.e. less in tune and more just flat), though his sound still moves me.

Some time ago, I expressed my unease about pitch/intonation in the late recordings of Serge Chaloff, but found no one who was prepared to say about him the sort of things which are being said in this thread about Jackie McLean and Gigi Gryce. Any views on Serge in this context?

Bill - I only have "Blue Serge", so I couldn't compare with any of his other recordings. But, talking of "sharp" alto players, how do you like Charles McPherson?

[clifford_thornton]

I've sometimes thought of McClean's playing as having a slightly "sour" quality---perhaps that's the "flat" tone some of you are talking about. Frankly, I've found it interesting; one of the things that gives his playing personality.

I like the Penguin Guide's description - "menthol sharp". I think it fits - his tone blows away the cobwebs, unblocks the ears as it were.

I don't know what 7/4 and Nate are talking about, really, all that well. But Jackie's tart quality - not to mention his power and the breadth of his phrasing - really gets me going.

[Peter Friedman]

Cool Struttin" is definitely a strong favorite of mine.

In fact, all of Sonny Clark's albums as leader get very high marks from me. They are essential parts of my collection. They occupy a place of honor on my shelves as do the 13 Horace Silver Blue Note albums recorded between November 1954 and November 1966.

[BruceH]

I've sometimes thought of McClean's playing as having a slightly "sour" quality---perhaps that's the "flat" tone some of you are talking about. Frankly, I've found it interesting; one of the things that gives his playing personality.

I like the Penguin Guide's description - "menthol sharp". I think it fits - his tone blows away the cobwebs, unblocks the ears as it were.

Yes! Good one. I very much agree.

[BruceH]

Cool Struttin" is definitely a strong favorite of mine.

In fact, all of Sonny Clark's albums as leader get very high marks from me. They are essential parts of my collection. They occupy a place of honor on my shelves as do the 13 Horace Silver Blue Note albums recorded between November 1954 and November 1966.

No argument here.

[mikeweil]

I received Dial "S" for Sonny yesterday, and wondered why they said in the new notes for the RVG CD that it was not one of Clark's best Blue Note sessions, but now that I've listened again after last spinning the LP copy I sold ten or so years ago, I see why: Clark seems a little nervous (only his second session for the label and his debut as a leader), is not playing on the high level as on later dates, and his themes are not as brilliant as the ones he composed for subsequent albums. Mobley and Farmer play excellently, though.

I think he grew considerably in the fast company of Blue Note regulars within the next months, both as a player and as composer.

[mikeweil]

I thought there was yet a third Cool Struttin' LP in Japan with a different band. Can't remember the specifics now.

That should be the March 29, 1959 session with Donald Byrd and Hank Mobley, released as a Connoisseur CD as My Conception.

All I could find was this, though I could swear there was yet another...

SONNY CLARK. Quintets. Blue Note 1592 (unissued).

(aka Cool Struttin' Vol. 2 Same as BNJ-61 016, LNJ-70093)

Clark (p), Clifford Jordan (ts), Kenny Burrell (g), Paul Chambers (b), Pete LaRoca (d).

"Minor Meeting"; "Eastern Incident"; "Little Sonny"

12/8/57.

Clark (p), Art Farmer (tpt), Jackie McLean (as), Paul Chambers (b), Philly Joe Jones (d).

"Royal Flush"; "Lover".

1/5/58.

Those five tracks were intended for Blue Note 1592 as mentioned in the source you quote. The Japanese LP issue used the cover of Cool Struttin' and added "Vol. 2".

The "another one" should be the March 29, 1959 session I mentioned:

Sonny Clark Quintet

Donald Byrd (tp) Hank Mobley (ts) Sonny Clark (p) Paul Chambers (b) Art Blakey (d)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Hackensack, NJ, March 29, 1959

tk.4 Blues Blue Blue Note [J] GXF 3056

tk.7 Royal Flush -

tk.9 Junka -

tk.11 Minor Meeting -

tk.12 My Conception -

tk.16 Some Clark Bars -

* Sonny Clark - My Conception (Blue Note [J] GXF 3056, [J] GXK 8158)

There were two unreleased sessions under Hank Mobley's leadership, too.

Edited April 14, 2008 by mikeweil

[BruceH]

I received Dial "S" for Sonny yesterday, and wondered why they said in the new notes for the RVG CD that it was not one of Clark's best Blue Note sessions, but now that I've listened again after last spinning the LP copy I sold ten or so years ago, I see why: Clark seems a little nervous (only his second session for the label and his debut as a leader), is not playing on the high level as on later dates, and his themes are not as brilliant as the ones he composed for subsequent albums. Mobley and Farmer play excellently, though.

I think he grew considerably in the fast company of Blue Note regulars within the next months, both as a player and as composer.

Indeed, Dial "S" always struck me as the closest he came to a "run-of-the-mill" album. (Though Mobley is fine on it.)

[GA Russell]

I have the 1987 McMaster release with two bonus tracks.

I've been listening to this one a number of times during the past week, and on some of the songs I'm picking up the same vibe I get from Miles' Walkin' album. Since some argue that that was the first hard bop album, I guess I should conclude that Clark and the rest reached for the basics of the hard bop idiom.

I assume that it was Alfred Lion who decided which four of the six songs from the date would be included on the original LP. I agree with whoever did it that the two left off (Royal Flush and Lover) are not as strong as the others.

It strikes me that for the leader of the date, Clark stays in the background a lot more than normal. Of course, he wrote three of the six songs, but I think that the album belongs to the two horns, Farmer and McLean.

[BruceH]

I have the 1987 McMaster release with two bonus tracks.

I've been listening to this one a number of times during the past week, and on some of the songs I'm picking up the same vibe I get from Miles' Walkin' album. Since some argue that that was the first hard bop album, I guess I should conclude that Clark and the rest reached for the basics of the hard bop idiom.

I assume that it was Alfred Lion who decided which four of the six songs from the date would be included on the original LP. I agree with whoever did it that the two left off (Royal Flush and Lover) are not as strong as the others.

It strikes me that for the leader of the date, Clark stays in the background a lot more than normal. Of course, he wrote three of the six songs, but I think that the album belongs to the two horns, Farmer and McLean.

That's what makes the album so "cool" on a number of levels. The way Clark sort of lays back on much of it, his generosity to the band...there's something really special about it I think.

[GA Russell]

GA, you must be on a similar wavelength to me! Cool Struttin' is one of my old favorites.

Glad it hits the spot, Bruce! That's what's great about the AotW forum, isn't it?

[Guy Berger]

McLean's contributions are an integral part of why I like this album. I think it is better than almost all of the albums McLean would record under his name over the next two or three years.

Guy

[bluemonk]

I liked "Cool Struttin" but I thought these were just as good if not better:

Recordings not pictured: "My Conception" and "Standards"

Hell everything Sonny Clark did was outstanding. We all have our favorites of course. If I had to pick one it would probably be "The Sonny Clark Trio."

[AndrewHill]

Playin' some Clark this morning, and after listening to a couple of dates, I still think that Cool Struttin' is probably my favorite date (has alot to do with McLean) with Sonny's Crib after that. The tunes and solos are pretty tight on these dates, and like McLean on CS, I think Chambers is really swingin' on Crib, and I find myself listening to him more than the other players (yeah, even with Trane there-strange huh?). Good stuff all the way around.

Honorable Mention goes to Leapin' and Loapin', yet another solid date.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Holy Ghost

[BruceH]

I agree, with one exception: I think I like Rouse on Leapin' and Lopin' just about as much as McLean on CS.

[bluemonk]

You know it's really a shame what happened to Sonny Clark. I thought he had a lot of promise. He was a damn fine pianist and composer. Just think of all the great music he could've made if he lived longer...

Edited May 15, 2008 by bluemonk

[BruceH]

You know it's really a shame what happened to Sonny Clark. I thought he had a lot of promise. He was a damn fine pianist and composer. Just think of all the great music he could've made if he lived longer...

You're right, but I try not to dwell on that, rather be thankful for all the really remarkable work he WAS able to put out during his all-too-short career.

[bluemonk]

You know it's really a shame what happened to Sonny Clark. I thought he had a lot of promise. He was a damn fine pianist and composer. Just think of all the great music he could've made if he lived longer...

You're right, but I try not to dwell on that, rather be thankful for all the really remarkable work he WAS able to put out during his all-too-short career.

I don't like to dwell on that stuff either, but yeah he did record some fine albums in his short life. I'm having a hard time finding a copy of "My Conception." It was his "lost session" and I really would like to own a copy. Any suggestions where I might could find other than Amazon.

[AndrewHill]

You know it's really a shame what happened to Sonny Clark. I thought he had a lot of promise. He was a damn fine pianist and composer. Just think of all the great music he could've made if he lived longer...

You're right, but I try not to dwell on that, rather be thankful for all the really remarkable work he WAS able to put out during his all-too-short career.

I don't like to dwell on that stuff either, but yeah he did record some fine albums in his short life. I'm having a hard time finding a copy of "My Conception." It was his "lost session" and I really would like to own a copy. Any suggestions where I might could find other than Amazon.

If you live near a Half Price Books, the European edition of 'My Conception' has been showing up there as a 'cut out.' I've seen a copy at the two store locations where I live.

[Brad]

Hell everything Sonny Clark did was outstanding. We all have our favorites of course. If I had to pick one it would probably be "The Sonny Clark Trio."

Definitely agree with this. Cool Struttin was my first Sonny album, not to mention one of my early Cds. Still love it.

[bluemonk]

You know it's really a shame what happened to Sonny Clark. I thought he had a lot of promise. He was a damn fine pianist and composer. Just think of all the great music he could've made if he lived longer...

You're right, but I try not to dwell on that, rather be thankful for all the really remarkable work he WAS able to put out during his all-too-short career.

I don't like to dwell on that stuff either, but yeah he did record some fine albums in his short life. I'm having a hard time finding a copy of "My Conception." It was his "lost session" and I really would like to own a copy. Any suggestions where I might could find other than Amazon.

If you live near a Half Price Books, the European edition of 'My Conception' has been showing up there as a 'cut out.' I've seen a copy at the two store locations where I live.

Thanks for letting me know about this.