Larry Young "Mother Ship"

[davef]

Not exactly, but you might try Lawrence of Newark - his next album - to see the direction he went in.

Personally, though, I far prefer Mother Ship.

[A Lark Ascending]

Bought and played this today and enjoyed it hugely.

I first heard Young on the McLaughlin/Santana 'Love Devotion and Surrender.' Though I've enjoyed the other Young recordings I've heard - Unity, Into Somethin' and Street of Dreams - they've never had that frenetic sound I heard on LD&S. Still very firmly in the hard bop camp (not meant as a criticism).

'Mothership' seems to stand on the boundary between straight jazz and the swirling dervish jazz-rock of LD&S. Which is just great by me.

[Soul Stream]

Although I recognize the genius involved in Larry's "Mothership." I sometimes question what his playing is all about here. On the title track, Larry's solo just seems like gibberish to my ears (my opinion entirely, not shared by many I know.) I'm just saying, if it's "sound itself" that Larry's going for, as in Ayler's "forget the notes" theory....o.k....that I understand I guess. Does it make for good "music" to my ears? No. Does it make for excitement....yes. Maybe that's the intent. No doubt Gladden and Young really fly through Mothership.

But....I dig this date in the sense that I like much of what's going on, in the same way I like Davis' second quintet. I'm a musican numbskull compared to these guys. But still, I'll take "Unity" or "Into Something" or "Talkin' About" any day over "Mothership." And I just don't get what came after this stuff.

Larry took the organ as far as it could go. But I think "artistically" he never equalled or went beyond the strides of "Unity." He was reaching for something, but it left me cold.

Maybe a musician who knows what Larry's doing here can explain. Jsngry...Free For All....hmmmmm....anybody....

Edited October 20, 2003 by Soul Stream

[JSngry]

I dunno, man. It's kinda like "speaking in tongues", I guess. You get something in you and that's the only way it can come out. Ain't no other way. Ayler's like that for me too. Call it ecstasy, maybe.

I do know that it's an easy technique to fake, but I can feel it when it's real (at least when it feels real to me, which is a BIG can of worms, I suppose, but that's life, I suppose), and it feels real to me here.

There is no "logic" to it. If anything it's "anti-logic", which can be a slippery slope if one is not fully equipped to step into that zone, but I definitely think that Larry, at this moment anyway, was.

Late Trane, Hendrix, Ayler, Larry (and Good Lord, if MOTHERSHIP wasn't enough, there would soon enough be LOVE CRY WANT, which makes MOTHERSHIP sound like BobRalston...), a lot of cats were getting into what Trane called "the upper partials of energy", which defintiely has a spiritual/metaphysical implication to it. Of course, spirituality and such is where you find it, and again, it's easy to be duped if you're not adequately grounded in "conventional" reality into believing that anything that goes out is somehow more "spiritual" than that which does not.

But I also think it's dangerous to ignore the link between advanced physics and spirituality. In the end, both deal with "vibrations" and interconnectedness on a macro scale. In that sense, music like this can be seen as a "splitting of the atom" in a way, a way to. or at least an attempt to, "breakthrough" conventional 3-D reality, perceptions, and thought. The success of it all is about as subjective as anything can be, so what can you REALLY say about it other than "I get it", "I don't get it", "I like it", "I hate it" or something along those lines? There are no wrong answers until everybody knows what the RIGHT ones are, and that seems to be a perpetually ongoing process. The one thing I think can't be argued is that there's always "more". What and where that "more" is though, well, I can't tell you that. This kind of thing was Larry's "more", at least for a little while, and if I can relate to it, that only means that I cna relate to it, if you know what I eman. Claiming more than that, an enthusiastic empathy, ain't too cool in many MANY ways.

So, did I not answer your question?

[A Lark Ascending]

My copy doesn't split any atoms, let alone connect physics and spirituality. Is this because the European Copy Control left all that out?

It will be returned to the shop pronto!

[JSngry]

No, there's nothing wrong with your copy.

[Soul Stream]

I dunno, man. It's kinda like "speaking in tongues", I guess. You get something in you and that's the only way it can come out. Ain't no other way. Ayler's like that for me too. Call it ecstasy, maybe.

I do know that it's an easy technique to fake, but I can feel it when it's real (at least when it feels real to me, which is a BIG can of worms, I suppose, but that's life, I suppose), and it feels real to me here.

There is no "logic" to it. If anything it's "anti-logic", which can be a slippery slope if one is not fully equipped to step into that zone, but I definitely think that Larry, at this moment anyway, was.

Late Trane, Hendrix, Ayler, Larry (and Good Lord, if MOTHERSHIP wasn't enough, there would soon enough be LOVE CRY WANT, which makes MOTHERSHIP sound like BobRalston...), a lot of cats were getting into what Trane called "the upper partials of energy", which defintiely has a spiritual/metaphysical implication to it. Of course, spirituality and such is where you find it, and again, it's easy to be duped if you're not adequately grounded in "conventional" reality into believing that anything that goes out is somehow more "spiritual" than that which does not.

But I also think it's dangerous to ignore the link between advanced physics and spirituality. In the end, both deal with "vibrations" and interconnectedness on a macro scale. In that sense, music like this can be seen as a "splitting of the atom" in a way, a way to. or at least an attempt to, "breakthrough" conventional 3-D reality, perceptions, and thought. The success of it all is about as subjective as anything can be, so what can you REALLY say about it other than "I get it", "I don't get it", "I like it", "I hate it" or something along those lines? There are no wrong answers until everybody knows what the RIGHT ones are, and that seems to be a perpetually ongoing process. The one thing I think can't be argued is that there's always "more". What and where that "more" is though, well, I can't tell you that. This kind of thing was Larry's "more", at least for a little while, and if I can relate to it, that only means that I cna relate to it, if you know what I eman. Claiming more than that, an enthusiastic empathy, ain't too cool in many MANY ways.

So, did I not answer your question?

Yeah Jim, you pretty much told me what I wanted to know. That is...when Larry's doing what he's doin'...is he just grabbing anything to make sounds or is there notes and theory to what's going down. I dig that grabbin' anything if that's what it takes to say what you're trying to say. And like you said, it's easy to tell someone who's doing it right (Like Larry and "Co.") vs someone just fakin' it (I can't do it, it would sound silly). I may not dig everything Larry's doing, but one thing I KNOW for sure...IT AIN'T EASY!!!! That's GD Larry YOUNG...MAN!!!! He don't play kiddie games. And neither do Lee, Gladden or Herbert for that matter. I do know that. But I was just curious, musically, what was happening. Thanks.

[JSngry]

Well, to elucidate (if it qualifies as such) further, whenI go there, I'm not thinking specific notes (except for certain key pitches along the way) as much as I am shapes, textures, and pure sounds. It's all good if you FEEL it and NEED to do it, dig? If you don't, well, no problem. But if you do, why not? Music (well, "real" music anyway, whatever that means to any one individual) is the one chance you get to fully be who and what you are and/or to explore that without hinderance or fear. That's too precious an opportunity to waste on trying to be somebody else or to follow a rule JUST because it's a rule. We do that enough in "regular" life, eh?

FWIW, I went to an Aebersold clinic in 1979 where Dave Liebman was a clinician. Not my favorite player or anything like that, but a cat I have a lot of respect for (now more than then, but that's another story...). Anyway, he played for us and got off into that bag for a little bit. When he finished, he took questions, and I asked him if, when he was playing that "textural" stuff (as I called it then) if he was thinking notes or shapes, and he didn't hesitate - "Shapes" was his immediate response. And then, a little wink and a "that's a good question" directed my way, as if to let me know that if I was thinking about it like that that I was probably feeling it too, and that he appreciated that. So really, it's just another mode of expression, one that comes in useful when/if "traditional" stuff doesn't quite get the point across you feel that you need to make. For me, it's usually when I'm really REALLY good. I use it to express joy more often than not. Although, seeing as how the bigger the front, the bigger the back, I can also use it to get really dark. But I only do that when I HAVE to. Life's too short to constantly dwell on misery, but sometimes you DO have to holler, ya' know what I mean?

Again, there's no reason to do it just for the sake of doing it. That's poser-ism of the WORST kind as far as I'm concerned. To thine own self be true, as one of those dead cats once said.

[Claude]

I only got to listen to the Conn today (I knew the music from a mp3 copy of the Mosaic before). I´m dissapointed about the sound quality of the CD. Very muffled, recessed soundstage and lacking dynamics. Don't know if it is the recording (late 60's BN sessions never sounded great on record) or McMasters remastering. My CD is the US pressing, not the copycontrolled EU one.

That being said, it is my favourite "spacey" Young session (for me "Unity" and "Into something" is the classic Larry Young).

[Nate Dorward]

Re: questions of Blue Note's keeping stuff in the vaults: my recollection was that in the liner notes to the Mosaic Cuscuna in fact states plainly that he thought it was unfortunate that it was left in the vaults as it was Young's best post-Unity Blue Note session. He blames its suppression on the fact that the heads are not always very neatly stated (some very obvious bum notes for instance) & that Alfred Lion hated sloppy heads.

I'll have to pull it out. I recall thinking it was quite good, not great, but a nice change from the downwards spiral of his previous three Blue Note discs.

[SEK]

My copy of "Mother Ship" arrived in today's mail, and I love it.

The only factor that might have improved this great session for me (I'm being very nitpicky here) would be Joe Henderson, but Herbert Morgan's playing is more than adequate.

[Big Al]

On first lesson, this did nothing for me, as I spent a lot of time thinking "WTF????"

On second, third, and subsequent listenings, this has wedged its way to the top of my favorite Larry Young albums. There's just so much here to dig, not the least of which is that it reminds me of Filles de Kilimanjaro in some spots (especially on "Trip Merchant," which probably could've been the title of this album!).

Yeah, that first track is unreal, to say the least. But from there it settles down, only slightly. Lots of great subtleties and nuances to be discovered on repeated listenings.

Great re-release indeed!

[Morganized]

On first lesson, this did nothing for me, as I spent a lot of time thinking "WTF????"

On second, third, and subsequent listenings, this has wedged its way to the top of my favorite Larry Young albums. There's just so much here to dig,

Lots of great subtleties and nuances to be discovered on repeated listenings.

Great re-release indeed!

I had the same reaction, Big Al. Since I had heard so much about this one I was surprised by my first reaction. I didn't think too much of it at first, but the more I listened I realized that Young was exploring some really different s*% here. It is so unique for the organ. I am really into it now and agree that it is probably one of my favorite Larry Young's. Like Big Al said, it is subtle, but you realize that Young is doing with the organ what the really good players do with the trumpet, sax etc.

[Rooster_Ties]

I loved this date from the very first time I heard it (about 3 years ago, when I first got the Young Mosaic used on eBay, for about $120 - sans box and booklet).

I recently picked up the new Conn, and had it on in my car for about 3 or 4 days. When I'm in the mood for it, I simply cannot get enough of this date. Everything about it excites me. That isn't to say that everything on the day works 'perfectly' -- but just like the very best Andrew Hill, I'm always left wanting more. Wanting to hear more sessions like this one, and wanting to hear this session again and again, because it always takes less obvious roads, and less obvious choices, at nearly every turn. All that, and some of THE most amazing and interesting Lee Morgan, anywhere!!

( I'll give this one a spin again this weekend, and try to post some more specific thoughts here in a couple days. )

PS: Some of you might remember that I lobbied HARD to get this released as a Conn back on the old BNBB. I already had the Mosaic, so it wasn't a matter of me not owning it. But seriously, of all the OOP sessions that were a bitch to find on CD (at the time), I could think of no other session more deserving of the Conn treatment, than "Mother Ship". At every opportunity (on the BNBB), I would quietly sing the praises of this album. I think I must have typed nearly 12 or 15 separate times, my standard description of this session as being like a cross between "Unity" and Don Cherry's "Complete Communion".

AND, for that reason, I swear my relentless posting was part of the reason that "Mother Ship" scored so damn high in the very last "what do you want on CD??" poll on the old BNBB. I think "Mother Ship" came in first place in that poll, which got communicated to the powers that be at BN. And for that reason, I think I did play some small but real part in "Mother Ship" coming out as a Conn. A more deserving session, I cannot think of.

[.:.impossible]

I think this is a killer session that only solidifies as the sequence progresses. I love to listen to this in my car at high volume.

I was a little shocked the first time through "Mothership," the title track. Lee Morgan's solo seems a little weak to me. He comes out of Herbert Morgan's solo with a mimic and seems to lose his momentum and eventually his confidence. I'm not a musician, so I could be missing something, but the tune loses some steam when Lee plays there.

Again, I am loving this session! I want more Larry Young.

[.:.impossible]

ps I think its high time I revisit Love Cry Want.

[bertrand]

The title track was actually the last tune recorded that day. This may explain why Lee's chops were weaker by the end of the day.

Bertrand.

[JSngry]

ps I think its high time I revisit Love Cry Want.

High time indeed!

You don't "visit" that sucker, you get taken prisoner by it.

Willingly.

[wolff]

Love this record. May be my fav from my newly arrived Mosaic set.

Noticed some comments about iffy sound with the CD(CONN) and I agree. The Mosaic LP pressing is stellar as far as my references go.

Just my thoughts on why it wasn't released: It sounds like a great session from 1963-66 which were not the rage in '69.

The tension created and released is amazing, while being sparse at the same time. It just grabs me.

Edited September 3, 2004 by wolff

[Guest ariceffron]

LARRY YOUNG OBVIOUSLY RECORDED THIS SESSION FOR A REASON THEREFORE YOU CANT SAY ITS A BAD SESSION

[sidewinder]

ps I think its  high time I revisit Love Cry Want.

High time indeed!

You don't "visit" that sucker, you get taken prisoner by it.

Willingly.

Any gig that caused Nixon to threaten to pull the plug must be worth a listen !

[Alon Marcus]

This is a very good album by many parameters. One of those sessions that walk on the border that lies between free and modal lands. The album is not totally free, though there are many moments when Larry is just plays percussively. The last track, "Love Drops", is in the same idiom like his "Unity" album. Both: "Visions" and "Street Scene" are modal tunes. Rock rhythms diffuse in many parts of the record and sometime remind me of "Bitches' Brew".

The interaction between the drums and the organ is terrific. Lee's problem is that he is not always blends naturally with them like Herbert Morgan does. Still Lee is playing great, turning many be bop clichés into developed and long musical statements.

Visions - happens to be my favorite track on this one. I also like very much the ending of the first track Mother Ship, wonder if it was planned or improvised.

[sidewinder]

Just got hold of a Liberty LP of this great session (LT-1038, first copy I've seen for years) and first impressions are that it possibly betters the sonics of the Mosaic LP. I'll have to do a cross-check of the two versions. Totally bowled over by the clarity of Larry's agressive pedal-work on 'Trip Merchant' in particular and the interaction with Gladden. Awesome !

[JSngry]

And you like the cover, right?

[sidewinder]

Yup - but what a penny whistle look-alike propped up in front of a condo block has to do with a 'Mother Ship' has me somewhat defeated...