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I like good music in any genre


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I was chatting to a guy some time back and he remarked that he liked good music in any genre. I thought, “Well, what’s wrong with bad music?” but it was neither the time nor the place to explore his and my thoughts about it.

Last night, however, reading the Dizzy Gillespie and Joe Henderson threads for the first time, it occurred to me that I’ve got a collection of bebop and hard bop (and avant) that has pretty well nothing but good records (ones I think are good, but see that that view is widely shared here).

I formed the view that this was because I don’t really like those kinds of music. In terms of music genres that I do really like – Soul Jazz, Gospel, Mbalax & Djeliya – I am very happy to have, and enjoy, mediocre, poor and even thoroughly crummy albums and not mind that they’re not good (in my opinion). But for kinds of music that I don’t really like, I generally won’t buy anything that isn’t really good.

Does anyone else feel the same way about the music in their collection or am I strange?

MG

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I think that as a beginner in genres you're not familiar with, you're only presented with the obvious choices - the classics are famous, few in number, get lots of exposure and sell lots of copies. Only after delving into a genre do you become aware of the numerous, little-heeded, perhaps less sensationally good, but still acceptable discs. This latter is what has happened to me under the headings of bop, cool and modern big band.

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Yes, I can relate to that.

When I started exploring jazz, with little funds and Berendt's book at hand, I sort of tried to get something by each artist that sounded interesting to, sometimes relying to his selected discography at the end, sometimes not. So I had "Saxophone Colossus" and a bit later "Freedom Suite", some Coltrane ("A Love Supreme" was an early one, but also several Prestige albums), then got Lateef's "Live at Pep's", Griffin's "Blowing Session", Mobley's "Soul Station", some Monk ("Brilliant Corners", "In San Francisco"), some Mingus ("Mingus Presents Mingus", "Mingus Ah Um"), a Jimmy Smith ("Back at the Chicken Shack"), and kind of moved on, getting something by other artists (Cannonball's "Somethin' Else" was an early part of the collection, also Miles' "Ascenseur pour l'echafaud", and some more Blue Note classics, some on Impulse...)

Later, once I got into their music seriously (and had more funds to spend... I still spend most of what I have on jazz) I started buying almost complete discographies, or at least buying all that was easy to obtain, with many of these musicians mentioned so far. I have what, 25 Jimmy Smith discs? Do I need them all? No, not at all of course, but hey, that's how it goes! Miles, Monk, Mingus and Coltrane remain the main pillars, I guess (I have almost all they officially released - same for Dolphy, but that's easier in his case), later Ornette and Taylor were added (but from neither of them I have that much, maybe two dozens of Ornette, three of CT, but that's nowhere near complete), also Bird, Bud, Monk's early stuff, Dizzy, bebop... and then even later I went backwards more, Basie, Prez, Ellington, Armstrong, Lunceford etc (that part of the trip is nowhere near complete!).

In the process of exploring new styles/areas, I tend to get tolerant to the point you describe: I just want as much as can be found easily (in some cases less easily and not very cheaply...)

But I still have plenty of one-disc entries in my collection, stuff that I just haven't had an opportunity to follow up, or took other turns. I might still get back there again.

This, btw, explains for instance, why I prefer "Chicken Shack" by far over "Midnight Special", "Soul Station" by far over "Roll Call" and "Workout", and "Saxophone Colossus" over nearly anything Rollins ever recorded (with the possible exception of "Live at the Village Vanguard", but I got the old CDs of those pretty early as well).

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I was chatting to a guy some time back and he remarked that he liked good music in any genre. I thought, “Well, what’s wrong with bad music?” but it was neither the time nor the place to explore his and my thoughts about it.

Last night, however, reading the Dizzy Gillespie and Joe Henderson threads for the first time, it occurred to me that I’ve got a collection of bebop and hard bop (and avant) that has pretty well nothing but good records (ones I think are good, but see that that view is widely shared here).

I formed the view that this was because I don’t really like those kinds of music. In terms of music genres that I do really like – Soul Jazz, Gospel, Mbalax & Djeliya – I am very happy to have, and enjoy, mediocre, poor and even thoroughly crummy albums and not mind that they’re not good (in my opinion). But for kinds of music that I don’t really like, I generally won’t buy anything that isn’t really good.

Does anyone else feel the same way about the music in their collection or am I strange?

MG

Egad man, have you no standards? :)

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I like variety, and that leads me to a certain amount of fair-to-mediocre music. Just last night I listened to Sonny Rollins' 1974 album The Cutting Edge, which I just picked up a few months ago. Ten years ago I would have said, "Why waste time listening to The Cutting Edge when I could be listening to Saxophone Colossus or Volume Two? But by now I can practically sing every note of Saxophone Colossus, and have listened to Volume Two and most of Rollins' other acknowledged masterpieces for years. I enjoy exploring "lesser" music for the variety.

Lots of the early jazz I enjoy is flawed in various ways - clunky rhythm sections, corny arrangements, and singers who are painfully bad. But that "lesser" music sometimes gives more insight into what was really going on than the "masterpieces."

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...In terms of music genres that I do really like – Soul Jazz, Gospel, Mbalax & Djeliya – I am very happy to have, and enjoy, mediocre, poor and even thoroughly crummy albums and not mind that they’re not good (in my opinion)...

That's why people call us "jazz snobs." :lol:

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Terms like 'good' and 'mediocre' are a bit loaded. But it's not hard to recognise that some music within a genre is clearly more derivative, has less new to say or is just not so well put together or played as well.

And yet...

I have no problem in appreciating the groundbreaking nature of the likes of Schoenberg or Brahms; but I'd sooner listen to a third division English cowpat composer. The genre just speaks to me.

I equate it with going on holiday. I could decide to spend the 25 or so years of potential holidaying time I have left just visiting the 'best' - the most renowned or historic sights or the best art galleries or the places with the most praised cuisine.

The trouble I have with that is:

a) I seem to be basing my decision on what someone else insists is the best.

b) I actually like going to the nooks and crannies of Cornwall. It engages something I don't fully comprehend that I don't get when faced with 'greatness'.

Same with music.

Of course, following your own path through the less celebrated areas of music or landscape doesn't prevent the occasional visit to the more widely revered.

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I think I see where you're coming from. However, I don't think that there's a single album in my collection of 3,000+ discs that I would characterize as "bad." Some things are certainly better than others. Some things are downright poor in comparison to some of the masterpieces out there. But if I own it, then there must be SOMETHING that I like about it. It could be the presence of one musician or one particular song that stands out. But if I like it, for whatever reason, it's not "bad." At least, not to me.

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I like variety, and that leads me to a certain amount of fair-to-mediocre music. Just last night I listened to Sonny Rollins' 1974 album The Cutting Edge, which I just picked up a few months ago. Ten years ago I would have said, "Why waste time listening to The Cutting Edge when I could be listening to Saxophone Colossus or Volume Two? But by now I can practically sing every note of Saxophone Colossus, and have listened to Volume Two and most of Rollins' other acknowledged masterpieces for years. I enjoy exploring "lesser" music for the variety.

Absolutely true. If you're truly dedicated to a genre, you do so much listening that even the classics begin to pall. This inevitably leads to the mining of lesser seams where there are fewer gems - but, by now, you're so steeped in the genre and your ears so attuned that you derive perhaps more pleasure from these minor works than you did from the classics in your amateur listening days.

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I like variety, and that leads me to a certain amount of fair-to-mediocre music. Just last night I listened to Sonny Rollins' 1974 album The Cutting Edge, which I just picked up a few months ago. Ten years ago I would have said, "Why waste time listening to The Cutting Edge when I could be listening to Saxophone Colossus or Volume Two? But by now I can practically sing every note of Saxophone Colossus, and have listened to Volume Two and most of Rollins' other acknowledged masterpieces for years. I enjoy exploring "lesser" music for the variety.

Absolutely true. If you're truly dedicated to a genre, you do so much listening that even the classics begin to pall. This inevitably leads to the mining of lesser seams where there are fewer gems - but, by now, you're so steeped in the genre and your ears so attuned that you derive perhaps more pleasure from these minor works than you did from the classics in your amateur listening days.

Also, I find myself checking out additional albums in certain genres or with certain artists, listening at least partially for that previously unheard "gem" track--is there yet another great song by______as good as his late 1950s classics that I was not aware of?

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I like variety, and that leads me to a certain amount of fair-to-mediocre music. Just last night I listened to Sonny Rollins' 1974 album The Cutting Edge, which I just picked up a few months ago. Ten years ago I would have said, "Why waste time listening to The Cutting Edge when I could be listening to Saxophone Colossus or Volume Two? But by now I can practically sing every note of Saxophone Colossus, and have listened to Volume Two and most of Rollins' other acknowledged masterpieces for years. I enjoy exploring "lesser" music for the variety.

Absolutely true. If you're truly dedicated to a genre, you do so much listening that even the classics begin to pall. This inevitably leads to the mining of lesser seams where there are fewer gems - but, by now, you're so steeped in the genre and your ears so attuned that you derive perhaps more pleasure from these minor works than you did from the classics in your amateur listening days.

Yes - that's what I meant.

MG

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Some of the most non-good records in the world fascinate me once I stop listeing to "the music" & start contemplating the "back story" - how did this get made..why did this get made, who actually put money into this thing...I wonder what happened to this guy, did he ever learn how to play better, did he go into the Army, the Panthers, the shithole, where?...so much sincerity, so little ability, where does it begin to matter/not matter, stuff like that.

Even really lame 50s "muzak" records, you know that there were real people playing that crap...what was the vibe in the studio, what else did they play that day...was anybody drunk?...that bass player sure plays this horrible music very well, could it be George Duvivier...shit like that...

When I put my money down, I want a reasonable chance of return on my investment. But when I'm just listening, hell, there's an angle to everything.

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I like variety, and that leads me to a certain amount of fair-to-mediocre music. Just last night I listened to Sonny Rollins' 1974 album The Cutting Edge, which I just picked up a few months ago. Ten years ago I would have said, "Why waste time listening to The Cutting Edge when I could be listening to Saxophone Colossus or Volume Two?

Dude, once you get past the lack of presence in the way Sonny was recorded, Side One of that album (the 1st 3 cuts) contain some very high-level playing...same sort of thing with Nucleus...most fucked-up material/arrangements, but when Sonny himself (or on two cuts, Sonny & Benny Maupin), that tone (fucking HUGE if you know how to extrapolate recorded sound into real sound...) & that time just take over. But you gotta get past the "surface" to get to that, and I understand how/why many people don't care about all that. It's there if you look for it is all I'm saying...

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I like variety, and that leads me to a certain amount of fair-to-mediocre music. Just last night I listened to Sonny Rollins' 1974 album The Cutting Edge, which I just picked up a few months ago. Ten years ago I would have said, "Why waste time listening to The Cutting Edge when I could be listening to Saxophone Colossus or Volume Two?

Dude, once you get past the lack of presence in the way Sonny was recorded, Side One of that album (the 1st 3 cuts) contain some very high-level playing...same sort of thing with Nucleus...most fucked-up material/arrangements, but when Sonny himself (or on two cuts, Sonny & Benny Maupin), that tone (fucking HUGE if you know how to extrapolate recorded sound into real sound...) & that time just take over. But you gotta get past the "surface" to get to that, and I understand how/why many people don't care about all that. It's there if you look for it is all I'm saying...

I agree - I have belatedly discovered the joys of 70s Sonny. There is some wonderful playing by Newk to be found in the most unpromising settings, on the lamest-looking albums.

And by saying that I'm probably negating my point above. Or maybe I'm not. It's okay either way.

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I would say that in the area of Cajun music I can distinguish between what's good and what's mediocre. I have a friend who collects it all, and he seems just as excited acquiring stuff that's mediocre as he does the stuff that's good. I just shake my head.

How about this, MG? Could you point out to the people making the mediocre stuff what they are doing wrong? I know there are some Cajun musicians who think they are improving the music by adding a walking bass or by syncopating in rock style or playing fast when really, they're just messing it up altogether. Addition by subtraction sometimes. The simpler can be better.

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Music/sound is like weather to me.

Random conditions bring it and I try to

find the interesting aspects within.

Damn, I really like this perspective. Thanks Rod!

MG's question is a good one. For me, I have a shedload of ska/rocksteady/roots reggae in my collection. Within the ska collection, for example, there is some amazing/classic stuff... but I also have some absolutely godawful third wave stuff that was clearly created by high school or college band geeks for whom ska may have been just the flavor of the month. Compared to ANY remotely competent jazz or classical musician, that godawful third wave ska is clearly shite. But, I tend to reach for it more often than some of my "genius" classical CDs. I guess I'd rather listen to ska than classical, and if the ska is shite, well... I can live with that.

So no, MG, you're not the only strange one.

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When I put my money down, I want a reasonable chance of return on my investment. But when I'm just listening, hell, there's an angle to everything.

Music/sound is like weather to me.

Random conditions bring it and I try to

find the interesting aspects within.

:tup

There's gems in all the genres (and I collect in a whole bunch), and finding the diamonds in the rough is my goal. I "trim the fat" on my iPod, identifying the best songs and weeding out the garbage. The process isn't foolproof, at times I've junked songs off the iPod only to hear them again later on and think, "why isn't that on my iPod?"

So while I put up with a whole lot of what others would consider crap, I'm in the process of whittling it all down. The only problem is my gathering has out-paced my discerning process.

There's too much good to great music - some that I've heard & some that I haven't heard yet - for me to waste what time I may have left on listening to "mediocre, poor and even thoroughly crummy albums."

Can't know they're crummy 'til you've heard 'em, and usually there's something which leads to giving 'em a listen to begin with.

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I was listening to Donny McCaslin's "Recommended Tools" the other day, an album I've enjoyed in the past, partly because it's a trio and that stripped-down sound appeals to me (even if it's less than dazzling, even pedestrian). But while listening to it the other day I found it entirely unenjoyable, almost aggravating. McCaslin (tenor sax) sounded like he was giving the listener little more than an exercise in playing scales (albeit imaginatively). But scales nonetheless. Noodling. No real thematic development, or at least too subdued or submerged to reveal itself, let alone advance.

This 'playing scales' quality -- where the forward momentum of the music is drained away -- seems to affect reed players more than brass, and infects contemporary music much more than bop or prior forms. But it's a definite marker that distinguishes 'good' from 'not so good' to my ear.

I'll have to put that album on again soon to see if my impression is firm.

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There's too much good to great music - some that I've heard & some that I haven't heard yet - for me to waste what time I may have left on listening to "mediocre, poor and even thoroughly crummy albums."

Can't know they're crummy 'til you've heard 'em, and usually there's something which leads to giving 'em a listen to begin with.

Yeah, I've bought things that I've considered mediocre, poor, or crummy. You have to take chances or you'll miss out on a lot. But once I peg something as not so hot, I definitely don't keep listening to it. That's what I meant.

Also, I listen to music as music. I try not to confine myself to a few genres and accept everything within those genres. Hope that doesn't sound pompous or self righteous.

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