Hans (J.A.W) deleted my post

[connoisseur series500]

I do not think that BM's posts deserved to be deleted. I have little interest in a forum where comments are monitored that closely. To me, our comments represent our personality and the way we think. What's wrong with that? As long as the comments don't lead to personal attacks, I don't see any merit in rubbing out comments.

So let me get this straight: we are not allowed to point out whether an item is priced on the high side? Sheesh! How about being allowed to publicly point out if we are cheated by a member who offered an item? Or is that considered offensive and not worthy of publication?

I say allow people to say what they want to say, as long as the comments don't reach ad hominem levels.

I'd be personally disinclined to publicly quote pm's.

For my part: if anyone finds any of the prices for my offered goods is too high, then feel free to post your opinion. My skin is thinker than an onion's.

I wonder whether a moderator needs to spend any time at all in the "offering/looking for" section. More than any other section, that is "the people's" section.

[clifford_thornton]

The prices aren't too high in my opinion, but that's not the point here I guess.

I also don't think that bitching about somebody's prices is a big deal - who cares?

Quoting the PM might have been bad form but Hans is a moderator, so...

[JSngry]

Dang. I was just gonna put some stuff up for sale.

I want a pleasurable experience though.

Shit, now what?

Give it away. Give it all away.

For the children!!!

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Hans (J.A.W.) deleted my post which commented on the high prices a board member was seeking for his cd's on ebay. This is the email chain which followed:From Hans:

Sent Today, 08:41 AM

Hans just deleted my post because he was offended. There is no Rule that I violated, just his opinion. This is censorship of the worst kind and i am Pissed!!!

Apart from exercising poor judgement by splashing private message traffic up on the board, I have to say that when I saw the post in question this a.m. I thought it was dim-witted. The guy has lots of rare Jpn import titles and you're lamenting the fact that he hasn't set the opening bids at 1/4 of what he has 'em pegged at? So, all those $19.99 jobbers of his should have had an opening bid of $4.99 to make you happy? What world are you living in where $19.99 is considered a high price for many of these hard-to-find jpn imports?

[Daniel A]

As a former moderator on another forum, where we have exacting rules on commenting on sellers and their auctions, I believe Hans did the right thing. He has also acted judiciously in making his comments. I also believe it's wrong to publish the contents of a pm discussion. I would be incensed if that had happened to me when I was moderating. Moreover, if someone had started a thread criticizing one of the mods for their actions, it would have been quickly deleted which, by the way, is what I think should happen here.

I fully agree with Brad's post, and I find the idea to start a poll about this slightly ridiculous.

[Jim Alfredson]

It has been an unspoken rule around here for a long time that commenting on the price of wares in the Offering / Looking forum is in bad taste. Imagine if you started a thread selling some rare CDs for $19 a pop and somebody came in and said "Damn, why can't I just buy them from you at $4.95? Why do you have to be so greedy?"

I know that's not what you wrote, but such comments can easily be misconstrued. Its better to just refrain and if you must say something, do it via PM. By the way, PM stands for "private message", which is what such conversations should be (ie, private), unless one reaches an impasse at which I'd be more than happy to throw in my two cents. I'm not spending that much time on the board these days due to other commitments, so I really appreciate the work of my mods. They are doing a thankless job.

I will state again that I have yet to find a better run board with more freedom than this one. I don't think its too much to ask to respect the few rules we do have in place.

[Big Wheel]

It has been an unspoken rule around here for a long time that commenting on the price of wares in the Offering / Looking forum is in bad taste. Imagine if you started a thread selling some rare CDs for $19 a pop and somebody came in and said "Damn, why can't I just buy them from you at $4.95? Why do you have to be so greedy?"

Yeah, that's obnoxious. I remember wincing at a few threads like that from time to time.

But you know what? I think tolerating a little of that is an acceptable price to pay for having more open discussions on the subject of sales. How about the converse case - someone who shows up asking ripoff prices for easily found items in the hope of snaring a few newbies who are enthusiastic about the music but aren't aware of the basic resources we use to gauge the market for it? I mean, we tolerate people who are in effect saying "I don't have any interest in your silly music discussions; my only interest in your community is that I can get free advertising here so you buy my shit." I don't have any beef with that attitude, personally. But are we really that concerned about bending over backward so as not to offend those people? Something tells me that if they have zero interest in getting to know us before selling us stuff, their sensibilities aren't all that delicate.

Or how about what BM did? He didn't call the poster greedy. He just expressed a desire to see lower reserve prices. Now, maybe BM's gauge of the market is wrong and there really are plenty of buyers at that price level, but if he's right then now the seller knows what level he should think about lowering his reserve to if he wants BM's business. I hardly see how communicating your qualified intent to buy someone's stuff counts as gauche. More information in the marketplace = more efficient selling = better for everybody. Just be polite about it.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Big Wheel

[Claude]

Not commenting negatively on other offerings is really part of the netiquette today.

The only exception I personally would accept would be if the seller misrepresented his offer to get a higher price.

For example by stating that a disc is very rare, when it is in fact easily available at a much lower price, or saying that the CD is the only reissue ever released when this is not true.

[Tom Storer]

Seems to me that J.A.W. was enforcing a reasonable policy and he did it politely. If the rule enforced is unspoken, well, now it should be understood. I think crying "censorship" in a case like this is exaggeration. On the one hand, there is nothing stopping a thread to discuss pricing in a general way, rather than one criticizing a particular seller; on the other, it doesn't seem like the deleted post was meant to be anything other than a one-off complaint to say, "I find this too expensive." I don't think anyone's freedom of speech is in danger at Organissimo.

[Big Beat Steve]

Suggesting their prices are high (or giving examples of the item cheaper elsewhere) only hurts the seller.

Obviously it doesn't only hurt the seller; this kind of information is very useful to less-savvy buyers.

FWIW, I do feel that the above - and all of Big Wheel's further elaborations on that aspect - is the essence of all this. :tup

Are those of you around here who so openly advocvate silencing those who find pricing of items offered for sale objectionable really sure you are doing the collecting community at large a service?

I am in no position to judge whether the offers in the thread in question really were overpriced but as a general rule I do feel that this "unspoken" policy of considering speaking out openly about excessive pricing being "in bad taste" is waaaay over the top. Isn't it in even worse taste to charge inflated prices? So isn't it a tradeoff of which taste is worse, in the end?

Do you really advocate sellers ripping off the unwary? Are you really in favor of letting price levels spiral upward uncontrolledly? (Those who want to push up prices can always find precedents of "that one sold it for so much then" unless the actors in these earlier precedents are called to task where necessary) So how does that tie in with other threads here where other forumists complain about exactly those practices and tendencies?

Please note that I definitely would not want to advocate calling allegedly expensive sellers names or slandering them in any way. But what would be wrong about adding some transparency about what's available out there? And in those cases where there is objective proof of shortcomings in offers this obviously would including speaking out about those, for example, who charge excessively for something that IS available at fairer prices elsewhere.

Remember just like nobody is forced to pay inflated prices NOBODY is forced to listen to those who say the item is too expensive or available at better prices elsewhere either But it IS reasonable IMHO to make the unwary aware of what, by and large, could reasonably be considered excessive.

If you cannot tolerate that open (and therefore open-minded) forums are ONE way of balancing market/selling/pricing practices that often really are nothing short of a ripoff then where did your highly esteemed right of free speech in the land of the free go? All drowned out in the name of P.C.? I stand flabbergasted ...

Edited June 8, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[Daniel A]

Please note that I definitely would not want to advocate calling allegedly expensive sellers names or slandering them in any way. But what would be wrong about adding some transparency about what's available out there?

In what way did the comments in question here add transparency about what's available?

[Big Beat Steve]

You know as well as I do (I think) that a lot of the comments made here go beyond that particular case in question that started this thread but refer to the question of whether or not to comment on prices felt to be excessive at all and I suppose you also know how discussions focusing on the price levels of certain items on the market tend to evolve every now and then.

Name calling and polemics are out, but IMHO pointing out (based on provable facts of what is available out there) that this or that price actually is inflated and purchasing therefore better to be avoided would indeed add to transparency in the sense of avoiding price levels spiralling upward no end just because awareness of the market is clouded artificially by avoiding discussions ... Checks and balances, you know ...

Edited June 8, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[Tom Storer]

I think it comes down to what the Offering & Looking For forum is designed to do. As I understand it, it's not so much a discussion forum per se as a digital want-ads column. You put in what you're looking for and what you have for sale, then conduct negotiations and possibly sales off-line, between buyer and seller. If ads are subject to being criticized, sellers will not want to use it.

The wider concern is that open discussion of the pricing of specific offers is an open door to manipulation. If someone makes an offer and someone in collusion with him comes in and says "What a great price! I wouldn't pass this up!" it can lead unsuspecting buyers to hurry to close a deal. If a trader wants to hurt a rival, he or she can post to say "Wow, this is pretty steep. I know it's on offer for a better price elsewhere." Bright Moments, I'm not accusing you of this, obviously. But in terms of policy, that, I think, is why buyers and sellers need to be able to carry out their dealings privately, without the gallery throwing in comments and advice that, at worst, could be unethical, and in any case are likely to be merely subjective.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Tom Storer

[Big Wheel]

It doesn't even have to be confrontational. What's wrong with asking in good faith, "Hey, can you elaborate on the value you offer to buyers beyond your prices? I saw X at J&R for $8.99, so I'm trying to make an informed decision about whether I should buy it from you at $18.99 instead." That's the kind of request for information that is not only well-intentioned, but is genuinely useful to all potential buyers (which is why it's better than doing everything via PM). It isn't all about price to me; in some cases I'm fine with paying higher prices if a seller can demonstrate to me other reasons I should buy from them instead of a major retailer.

[king ubu]

(...) If someone makes an offer and someone in collusion with him comes in and says "What a great price! I wouldn't pass this up!" it can lead unsuspecting buyers to hurry to close a deal. If a trader wants to hurt a rival, he or she can post to say "Wow, this is pretty steep. I know it's on offer for a better price elsewhere." Bright Moments, I'm not accusing you of this, obviously. But in terms of policy, that, I think, is why buyers and sellers need to be able to carry out their dealings privately, without the gallery throwing in comments and advice that, at worst, could be unethical, and in any case are likely to be merely subjective.

I'm guilty of the bold part... and if this rule is to be executed consequentely, such posts ought to be deleted immediately as well!

Anyway, I'm settled in Big Beat Steve's camp here, but then I don't care that much as I'm spending less and less time here anyway.

[Jazzmoose]

$10 on three weeks.

Edited June 8, 2010 by J.A.W.
quoted post deleted because it was a personal attack on another member

[Claude]

It doesn't even have to be confrontational. What's wrong with asking in good faith, "Hey, can you elaborate on the value you offer to buyers beyond your prices? I saw X at J&R for $8.99, so I'm trying to make an informed decision about whether I should buy it from you at $18.99 instead." That's the kind of request for information that is not only well-intentioned, but is genuinely useful to all potential buyers (which is why it's better than doing everything via PM). It isn't all about price to me; in some cases I'm fine with paying higher prices if a seller can demonstrate to me other reasons I should buy from them instead of a major retailer.

But it's kind of like walking into a store and shouting (so all customers can hear it) "Seems kind of expensive here. Most of your stuff is cheaper elsewhere. Can you make me a deal?"

Edited June 8, 2010 by Claude

[Big Beat Steve]

But it's kind of like walking into a store and shouting (so all customers can hear it) "Seems kind of expensive here. Most of your stuff is cheaper elsewhere. Can you make me a deal?"

I think you are waaaaay overrating the nature and character of most sellers and items on offer on Buy and Sell sections of forums like this. Some sellers may think of themselves differently (except when it comes to their tax statements, obviously ) but in fact we ARE INDEED talking about an online garage sale, fleamarket, private-stall record fair etc. here IMO, aren't we? And aren't we all haggling and comparing there everywhere? Have you never tried to "negotiate a deal" or told somebody off who tried to offer you items at rates you considered expensive (and in doing so haven't you told him you'd be able to get an equivalent item at so-and-so much less elsewhere)?

And then online publicity and visibility works both ways, of course, too. You get more exposure that way but will have to live with the fact that thanks to this increaed exposure more people will be able to call your bluff too (if there is reason to call your bluff). Like most things in life, it's a tradeoff, and you can't always have your cake (more exposure) and eat it (i.e. NOT receive all sorts of just as exposed feedback).

Edited June 8, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[.:.impossible]

I will agree that airing PMs is a very toughcall, but discussing price? I'm not big on the secondary market, but I do buy on occassion. I personally try to do some comparison research, and find discussion on price to be very helpful, whether here or elsewhere.

Etiquette, of course, follows its own criteria.

[JSngry]

It has been an unspoken rule around here for a long time that commenting on the price of wares in the Offering / Looking forum is in bad taste. I

It has now become written/spoken/official.

[Bright Moments]

It has been an unspoken rule around here for a long time that commenting on the price of wares in the Offering / Looking forum is in bad taste. Imagine if you started a thread selling some rare CDs for $19 a pop and somebody came in and said "Damn, why can't I just buy them from you at $4.95? Why do you have to be so greedy?"

I know that's not what you wrote, but such comments can easily be misconstrued. Its better to just refrain and if you must say something, do it via PM. By the way, PM stands for "private message", which is what such conversations should be (ie, private), unless one reaches an impasse at which I'd be more than happy to throw in my two cents. I'm not spending that much time on the board these days due to other commitments, so I really appreciate the work of my mods. They are doing a thankless job.

I will state again that I have yet to find a better run board with more freedom than this one. I don't think its too much to ask to respect the few rules we do have in place.

The Rules we have in this Forum are here:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

I did not violate any Rule. If there really is a rule it should be written. Add it to the posted Rules. In this case Hans was overzealous in deleting my post. Deletion is a harsh sanction and should be used ONLY when one of the posted Rules has been violated.

[Christiern]

I don't know enough about the "incident" to comment on the deletion, but posting a received PM without the sender's permission is clearly wrong. BM owes JAW an apology for that.

[Daniel A]

The owner of this message board has expressed his view on how he'd like the offering/looking for section to be used. Why not respect that? I don't think that the idea of "freedom of speech" is applicable on a privately owned web forum. As has been stated, the overall tolerance level here is high when compared to most other places.

[Bright Moments]

I don't know enough about the "incident" to comment on the deletion, but posting a received PM without the sender's permission is clearly wrong. BM owes JAW an apology for that.

Maybe you are right about that chris - i am not so sure. The PM was sent to me by a Moderator, in his official capacity. I wanted to fairly and honestly bring the issue to the board members for discussion and this seemed to me the fairest way to present it. I was (am) angry about the deletion of an innocuous post. I think it is wrong.

[Brad]

It has been an unspoken rule around here for a long time that commenting on the price of wares in the Offering / Looking forum is in bad taste. Imagine if you started a thread selling some rare CDs for $19 a pop and somebody came in and said "Damn, why can't I just buy them from you at $4.95? Why do you have to be so greedy?"

I know that's not what you wrote, but such comments can easily be misconstrued. Its better to just refrain and if you must say something, do it via PM. By the way, PM stands for "private message", which is what such conversations should be (ie, private), unless one reaches an impasse at which I'd be more than happy to throw in my two cents. I'm not spending that much time on the board these days due to other commitments, so I really appreciate the work of my mods. They are doing a thankless job.

I will state again that I have yet to find a better run board with more freedom than this one. I don't think its too much to ask to respect the few rules we do have in place.

The Rules we have in this Forum are here:

http://www.organissi...tion=boardrules

I did not violate any Rule. If there really is a rule it should be written. Add it to the posted Rules. In this case Hans was overzealous in deleting my post. Deletion is a harsh sanction and should be used ONLY when one of the posted Rules has been violated.

First, Jim said it's an unspoken rule which implies a custom or practice. As you know a custom or a practice can be just as effective as a written rule.

Second, the first written rule says as follows:

"1) The Organissimo Forums support the notion of free speech, although the definition of "free" is defined by the owners and operators of this board. We reserve the right to edit, delete, or otherwise moderate any post we deem inappropriate at any time for any reason." I did not add the emphasis by the way.

Based on the foregoing, it seems that Jim and the mods have wide latitude in what should be allowed and not.