Artists you know well but have never really liked

[CJ Shearn]

A 3rd vote "for" Pat Metheny.

have you checked out 80/81? Some incredible blowing from Pat, Mike Brecker and Dewey Redman. "Every Day (I Thank You)" is one of Pat's best tunes melodically and harmonically. You really shouldn't ask me though b/c I own just about everything Pat has recorded as a leader . Can't wait to see him live in October on the "Orchestrion" tour.

Granted I'm a big fan of Pat in certain doses (Song X--which is still the most facile translation of Ornette's phrasing to the guitar anyone has ever done--the trio with Haden and Higgins), I got 80/81 in the midst of a big Dewey Redman binge and found myself kind of perplexed at the completely unironic smooth jazz flourishes in Metheny's writing and playing. It's completely not my bag, but I wholeheartedly respect and, in some perverse way, support Metheny's reluctance to go down any clearly defined, conventionally "tasteful" career path.

"Song X", the Twientieth Anniversary is a revelation, both sonically and musically. I think Pat is supporting Ornette on that album much in the same way that Don Cherry did with the parallel lines. Pat is doing some crazy things with Ornette's music using the Orchestrion.

[ep1str0phy]

I had no idea Ornette stuff was a part of the Orchestrion project--maybe I should pay closer attention this time. Agreed on Song X, by the way. That duo track never fails to blow my mind. I think Metheny may come after only Cherry and Redman as a frontline player capable of meeting Ornette on his own melodic terms.

[Peter Friedman]

This is a truly interesting thread. It demonstrates how even among experienced jazz listeners there is such a wide range of tastes. I personally agree with some of the comments regarding artists people don't like.

But on the other hand, I am a bit surprised that some of of the names mentioned are among strong favorites of mine.

It was rather shocking to see names like Zoot Sims, Dexter Gordon, Jackie McLean Tommy Flanagan and Hank Jones listed.

Contrary to what Larry said, I believe Zoot's Pablo recordings are his best work, though I do agree with him on what he said about Al Cohn.

I was not surprised to see negative comments about Scott Hamilton and Phil Woods though I don't share those opinions.

One name I thought would be mentioned often - but was not - is Oscar Peterson, though I happen to enjoy his playing.

[CJ Shearn]

I had no idea Ornette stuff was a part of the Orchestrion project--maybe I should pay closer attention this time. Agreed on Song X, by the way. That duo track never fails to blow my mind. I think Metheny may come after only Cherry and Redman as a frontline player capable of meeting Ornette on his own melodic terms.

He is doing an Ornette-ish improvisation on the tour bookended with "Broadway Blues". I will see/hear this for myself in October. Pat and Ornette have been talking for years about a followup. Hope they do it before time runs out for Ornette.

[Larry Kart]

I, for one, haven't mentioned Oscar Peterson because I've had my say before and don't have that many O.P.-led recordings, though I do like the Stratford Fest, Concertgebouw and Plays Basie albums.

[jlhoots]

A 3rd vote "for" Pat Metheny.

have you checked out 80/81? Some incredible blowing from Pat, Mike Brecker and Dewey Redman. "Every Day (I Thank You)" is one of Pat's best tunes melodically and harmonically. You really shouldn't ask me though b/c I own just about everything Pat has recorded as a leader . Can't wait to see him live in October on the "Orchestrion" tour.

Granted I'm a big fan of Pat in certain doses (Song X--which is still the most facile translation of Ornette's phrasing to the guitar anyone has ever done--the trio with Haden and Higgins), I got 80/81 in the midst of a big Dewey Redman binge and found myself kind of perplexed at the completely unironic smooth jazz flourishes in Metheny's writing and playing. It's completely not my bag, but I wholeheartedly respect and, in some perverse way, support Metheny's reluctance to go down any clearly defined, conventionally "tasteful" career path.

"Song X", the Twientieth Anniversary is a revelation, both sonically and musically. I think Pat is supporting Ornette on that album much in the same way that Don Cherry did with the parallel lines. Pat is doing some crazy things with Ornette's music using the Orchestrion.

Song X is just fine & the only Metheny I still listen to.

[B. Goren.]

Am I the first one to mention David S. Ware??? I dont like his playing and I tried to listen to several of his CDs. Few years ago I sold all of them.

[David Ayers]

Clark Terry, again with a few exceptions -- e.g. his 1955 album "Swahili" and the Riverside date with Monk and Philly Joe. Too often, later on, he just trots out his shtick.

I wonder if there are players who are better as a sideman than leader? As if the player thinks "It's not my name on it -- it won't 'cost' me anything to take chances..."

When it comes to his own name, he plays it safe: "Don't want to scare anyone away..."

As an aside on this topic, I've often thought the reverse, that in many cases a sideman/woman will reserve his/her best ideas for his/her own record. I find the cases where the sideperson stands out to be a minority, and often notable for that reason.

as for Jackie McLean - if you have problems, try listening to the live stuff from Europe (Scandanavia? Germany? can't remember) with things llike Das Dat - the absolute pinnacle of post-bop intensity and inventiveness. Amazing stuff.

Yes I thought someone would say that. You rightly infer that I never heard that stuff - it's about all of his that I don't actually own. I guess I'll buy in those Steeplechase LPs - I seem to remember Jim recommmending Montmartre. About ten years ago. Damn.

[AllenLowe]

as for Larry/Hank Jones - I actually think Hank was best before his keyboard touch was somewhat flattened out in the 1960s - his earlier stuff had a bit more Nat-Cole-like bounce which very effectively countered the more even keel of bebop line. Listen to the Savoy solo stuff ('54? 56?), and there is a Capitol trio record from the early 1960s that I like a lot - I also remember hearing him the 1970s doing a Fats Waller medley and it was quite excellent.

Flanagan - this surprises me, though I wonder, Larry, if you heard him in person at all - major difference from records; like Barry Harris, engineers have a tough time translating his touch to the recording medium. And how could you NOT like a guy who said, about the Giant Steps recording date, "it was just a set of chord changes."

Clark Terry - I agree here, though I like him best on those "live" Dinah Washington things from the 1950s - I remember Carisi used to complain about his playing, and a famous pianist who I know, and who worked with him said, 'he plays great, but he still does that damned 'Secret Love.'

and right-on about Phil Woods, who to me is a bebop-machine; as for Zoot, just something missing - must be those pink elephants accompanying him.

Edited June 11, 2010 by AllenLowe

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

The only ones I play much are "Tippin' the scales"

Same here....the key word being "much." 'Capuchin Swing' is next in line.

......also, Jimmy Forrest and Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis get on my nerves.

[ejp626]

I'd probably go with Roscoe Mitchell. I've picked up almost all his CDs, including most of the AEC outings, but aside from Snurdy McGurdy, which I just love, the rest leaves me pretty cold and I've parted with most of it. I'm almost certain I would feel the same about Threadgill (whom I don't know nearly as well), so I've decided getting the Mosaic box would not be a good decision for me.

Edited June 11, 2010 by ejp626

[JSngry]

FWIW, Roscoe & Henry have quite different "warmth levels" in terms of projecting a vibe to a "general audience".

[ejp626]

FWIW, Roscoe & Henry have quite different "warmth levels" in terms of projecting a vibe to a "general audience".

Point taken, but I still don't want to buy the Mosaic just to find out the music doesn't really speak to me. I think even the recent 4 CD set might be too much.

I am a bit more interested in the John Carter Select. I do have Castles of Ghana and a few others, but I still don't reach for them that often. I am trying to re-prioritize and maybe having hundreds of CDs on the shelves that I never listen to isn't the way I should play out the second half of my life. I have one bookcase of the most important CDs (maybe 300) and I could sell all the rest off and probably never notice the difference. I've been thinking about that a lot lately, especially as the second hand CD market looks set to collapse as well.

[Larry Kart]

About Jones, Flanagan, and Barry Harris, too -- I guess I just don't care for that out of Teddy Wilson into Bop approach. Too often it seems merely tasteful-bland to me, with a lot of gestures that become very familar over time, though there are exceptions in each case -- e.g. Jones' solo on "Autumn Leaves" from "Somethin' Else" is among the most magical things I know, though the overall musical context does do a lot to shape what happens there.

BTW, Allen, I'm not just judging these guys against Bud's fiery genius or Duke Jordan's gorgeous lyrical flow. Just place Al Haig alongside any of the aforementioned trio...

[AllenLowe]

I understand - the one pianist, above all others, that I believe has to be seen in person to be "felt" is Barry Harris - whom I've known for 30 years, and whose recordings have yet to reflect his whole aura. Some are much better than others, but he just has that something extra in person that makes it work.

As for Haig, one had to get him on a good night in the 1970s and early '80s. Stll, he always had that touch which made him such a major musician. But nothing ever came up to his trio stuff from 1953.

Duke Jordan is also a personal favorite of mine. I used to see him at a little club in St. Albans, Queens in the 1970s called Gerald's Cafe. Amazing player whose personality, once one delved into it and got to know him a bit, was the polar opposite of his keyboard esthetic.

Interestingly, he told me he used to practice with Bill Evans.

[ep1str0phy]

FWIW, Roscoe & Henry have quite different "warmth levels" in terms of projecting a vibe to a "general audience".

Point taken, but I still don't want to buy the Mosaic just to find out the music doesn't really speak to me. I think even the recent 4 CD set might be too much.

I am a bit more interested in the John Carter Select. I do have Castles of Ghana and a few others, but I still don't reach for them that often. I am trying to re-prioritize and maybe having hundreds of CDs on the shelves that I never listen to isn't the way I should play out the second half of my life. I have one bookcase of the most important CDs (maybe 300) and I could sell all the rest off and probably never notice the difference. I've been thinking about that a lot lately, especially as the second hand CD market looks set to collapse as well.

Castles of Ghana--or, really, any of those later Gramavision albums--are actually pretty different from Carter's earlier (pre-90's efforts). Even the earlier Dauwhe, which is from the same "series" of albums, comes across as slightly more organic, warmer, and musically self-contained (the programmatic qualities of the "Roots and Folklore" cycle seem to grow in prominence with the later albums). While it's fascinating to hear Carter delve into this actually pretty unique language--nothing really sounds like those Gramavision albums--his earlier sides with Bradford (from the duos on Emanem to the material that will be included on the box) are certainly somewhat "tastier" and maybe easier to digest on a casual basis. Instrumentation-wise there is, of course, a strong post-Ornette component, but both Carter and Bradford come from such unique harmonic bags that the similarities are really only facile; the music sounds changes-less but develops with its own sense of logic (that is--if you're attuned to Atlantic Ornette at all, it's not really the same thing).

On a completely different level, Carter was a great sax player but an even more virtuosic clarinetist. His sax work on the earliest sides with Bradford, anyway, is nothing to be embarrassed about--it does any number of Ornette (or Coltrane, for that matter) clones to shame. But his clarinet stuff is unparalleled in this context. (Bradford told me how Carter had been playing with a collapsed lung in the final stages of his life; apparently, it took a doctor's visit for him to even realize that he'd be blowing with a crippling respiratory problem for some time...)

[Chuck Nessa]

FWIW, Roscoe & Henry have quite different "warmth levels" in terms of projecting a vibe to a "general audience".

Point taken, but I still don't want to buy the Mosaic just to find out the music doesn't really speak to me. I think even the recent 4 CD set might be too much.

I am a bit more interested in the John Carter Select. I do have Castles of Ghana and a few others, but I still don't reach for them that often. I am trying to re-prioritize and maybe having hundreds of CDs on the shelves that I never listen to isn't the way I should play out the second half of my life. I have one bookcase of the most important CDs (maybe 300) and I could sell all the rest off and probably never notice the difference. I've been thinking about that a lot lately, especially as the second hand CD market looks set to collapse as well.

Please try one of the Threadgills on About Time before you toss him in the dust bin.

[AndrewHill]

Some artists who I've bought several titles from and either sold them all or kept one or two titles:

David Murray (sold everything except Flowers for Albert, which is really good)

Clark Terry (kept Color Changes)

Jimmy Smith (gasp) (as much as I want to get into his music, there's just something that's not appealing to me; however I do dig Larry Young and Lonnie Smith)

Sonny Stitt (I tried listening to the Royal Roost disks and they left me cold. The "Meets the OP Trio" did absolutely nothing for me either)

Dave Douglas (technically, he's really good, but his music overall just doesn't speak to me. I kept Convergence and Eternal Triangle though, hoping that maybe something will click someday)

Sonny Red (even as a sideman, I find his playing to be repetitve and boring, esp on the Don Byrd dates Mustang and Blackjack, which I'm keeping because the music, even with him there, is really good)

[Noj]

Not sure how I'd respond in this thread. I have a tons of albums that I neglect...but when I come back to 'em I'm glad I have 'em.

All the same I tend to keep coming back to favorite tracks more than anything else. Those perfect moments where the melodies and solos come together so strong. I'm more sporadically "left cold" than anything I could blame on any one musician.

[RDK]

Not sure how I'd respond in this thread. I have a tons of albums that I neglect...but when I come back to 'em I'm glad I have 'em.

Was just about to say almost the same thing. Still, I understand the thread and could toss in a few names myself. I have many albums by Jackie McLean and Dexter Gordon both, but there are few of them that I really love (the McLean BN Mosaic is a notable exception; I love that period). I have a fair amount of Anthony Braxton as well, but I have to really be in the mood to listen to them - and even then I often feel that I'm "studying" him more than just listening to and enjoying him. As for pianists, folks like Tommy Flannigan and Teddy Wilson tend to bore me except occasionally as sidemen.

[Д.Д.]

Interesting thread.

In addition to McLean, Roscoe Mitchell and Braxton (of the latter I have 45 albums, including some multi-CD boxes, and I did spend substantial amount of time listening to his music) mentioned above, I would say Mingus. I have most of his stuff, and I am not sure if I ever really liked it that much. First, I can't appreciate his bass playing (sound too tense and contrived; solos boring and often too busy, IMHO), and his compositions and arrangements I find somewhat formulaic and stifling (I like "What Love?", though). Might be also due to Dannie Richmond's presence - don't like his style either. At the moment, Mingus Plays Piano is the only album of his I return to often.

Then, Ornette. I think I have his complete discography, save for a couple of items. Love his compositions, particularly the earlier ones, never managed to appreciate his solos - they all sound very much the same to me (again, earlier ones I find more appealing).

[king ubu]

Clark Terry, again with a few exceptions -- e.g. his 1955 album "Swahili" and the Riverside date with Monk and Philly Joe. Too often, later on, he just trots out his shtick.

I wonder if there are players who are better as a sideman than leader? As if the player thinks "It's not my name on it -- it won't 'cost' me anything to take chances..."

When it comes to his own name, he plays it safe: "Don't want to scare anyone away..."

Freddie Hubbard to me sounds a bit like that... I grew to like him, but one or two years back, his name would have come to mind immediately, with respect to the topic of this thead!

Clark Terry, again with a few exceptions -- e.g. his 1955 album "Swahili" and the Riverside date with Monk and Philly Joe. Too often, later on, he just trots out his shtick.

I wonder if there are players who are better as a sideman than leader? As if the player thinks "It's not my name on it -- it won't 'cost' me anything to take chances..."

When it comes to his own name, he plays it safe: "Don't want to scare anyone away..."

I don't know if he's better as a sideman than he is as a leader but I personally prefer Oscar Peterson much more as a sideman than I do as a leader.

I'm also on the same page with Clark Terry. "Swahili" is the only title I have in his name.

If you can lay hands on it, get Ed Thigpen's "Out of the Storm" (with Terry, Burrell, Hancock and Carter). Amazing album, and no, neither Burrell nor Terry marrs it!

[JETman]

FWIW, Roscoe & Henry have quite different "warmth levels" in terms of projecting a vibe to a "general audience".

Point taken, but I still don't want to buy the Mosaic just to find out the music doesn't really speak to me. I think even the recent 4 CD set might be too much.

I am a bit more interested in the John Carter Select. I do have Castles of Ghana and a few others, but I still don't reach for them that often. I am trying to re-prioritize and maybe having hundreds of CDs on the shelves that I never listen to isn't the way I should play out the second half of my life. I have one bookcase of the most important CDs (maybe 300) and I could sell all the rest off and probably never notice the difference. I've been thinking about that a lot lately, especially as the second hand CD market looks set to collapse as well.

Please try one of the Threadgills on About Time before you toss him in the dust bin.

Personally, I find the Pi's more satisfying, but the About Time's are great as well.

[AndrewHill]

Clark Terry, again with a few exceptions -- e.g. his 1955 album "Swahili" and the Riverside date with Monk and Philly Joe. Too often, later on, he just trots out his shtick.

I wonder if there are players who are better as a sideman than leader? As if the player thinks "It's not my name on it -- it won't 'cost' me anything to take chances..."

When it comes to his own name, he plays it safe: "Don't want to scare anyone away..."

Freddie Hubbard to me sounds a bit like that... I grew to like him, but one or two years back, his name would have come to mind immediately, with respect to the topic of this thead!

Clark Terry, again with a few exceptions -- e.g. his 1955 album "Swahili" and the Riverside date with Monk and Philly Joe. Too often, later on, he just trots out his shtick.

I wonder if there are players who are better as a sideman than leader? As if the player thinks "It's not my name on it -- it won't 'cost' me anything to take chances..."

When it comes to his own name, he plays it safe: "Don't want to scare anyone away..."

I don't know if he's better as a sideman than he is as a leader but I personally prefer Oscar Peterson much more as a sideman than I do as a leader.

I'm also on the same page with Clark Terry. "Swahili" is the only title I have in his name.

If you can lay hands on it, get Ed Thigpen's "Out of the Storm" (with Terry, Burrell, Hancock and Carter). Amazing album, and no, neither Burrell nor Terry marrs it!

Out of the Storm is nice, but I'm not sure its "amazing". Even Terry doesn't bother me on this date, but I actually think Burrell steals the show; he even does a little free playing here, which is something I've never heard him do.

[king ubu]

Lou Donaldson is definitely one that I have too many discs of, compared to my estimation (or lack thereof) of his music. Sure, he's a good bop alto player and he did some fine organ gritty stuff, too... but later, he went on playing the same two or three numbers, and I never quite got into his sound, either.