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BLINDFOLD TEST #4 - ANSWERS


JSngry

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Glad to know it's Wilkerson & Bowie on the "Ornette" cut--Wilkerson in particular sounds excellent--but I still don't get it about el'Zabar himself (& the cut is hardly an advertisement for his inventiveness as a drummer ;) ). The one time I've seen him live was in duet with Fred Anderson; Kahil disappeared into the dressing room just before the concert was to start, leaving Fred bewildered onstage--Kahil made him & the audience wait for an hour before he bothered to show up, & then the concert itself was a depressing display of a great tenor player having to contend with some obnoxiously splashy & egotistical drumming. Anyway, that was my last shot at hearing el'Zabar, because the local music promoter won't bring him here any more (after three occasions where his Ritual Trio was hired to play--KEZ only brought one other player on each occasion but ate the fee for the full trio anyway).

Yeah, Marsh remains a specialist taste I guess. I was surprised so few people identified him, actually--easily one of the most distinctive stylists on the saxophone I know of, identifiable within a few notes if you know his sound.

I assume Woody Theus = "Son Ship Theus"? What happened to him anyway? I last encountered him on some Charles Lloyd discs in the early 1980s.

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Folks, my verbosity done broke the board, it seems. Ran out of room in the orignal post! Answer posts in full to be found HERE , but if the discussion continues here, that's cool. I had a little rant that I had to finish, and this was the only way to do so. Vanity on my part, sure, but dammit, I WANT CLOSURE!!!! :g:g:g

Edited by JSngry
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Mike, thanks for the kindness. We must get together and combine notes on record collections and other life experiences one day!

That's a drag about el'Zabar, Nate. I've never considered him a "great drummer" as much as I have a bandleader who puts out consistently interesting music with consistently interesting players on board (Lordymercy, the first EHE album on Moers, the one w/Wilkerson & Douglas Ewart, will freakin' peel the paint outcher brain!). But I don't have to work with or for him in any capacity, so no doubt...

Yeah, I whought more people would pick up on Warne, or at least hear something DIFFERENT About him. God knows, the guy had about as unique a tone and phrasology as there ever was. I'm also a bit perplexed that a lot of people heard James Brown as a female! :blink: But I guess the point is proven once again that everybody hears, not "hears", but literally HEARS things in different ways, which is a pretty interesting concept in and of itself.

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We must get together and combine notes on record collections and other life experiences one day!

I hope our wives will get along as well, otherwise we risk ruining our marriages, 'cause this will be going to last for months!!! :g

I couldn't find any better words describing Warne Marsh's sound, he was truly unique, and this kind of individuality moves me much more than the Berklee/Brecker type of playing.

The Joe Daley is another example for great talent that nobody notices, and I sure will try to get the Threadgill.

The fact that he was almost killed in a severe automobile accident in August 1952 - he was unconscious for several weeks -, leaving an impact on his forehead and lowering his voice considerably sheds some light on that Percy Mayfield lyric. His expression is so uninhibited it sends chills down my spine, not always of the pleasurable type.

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Bravo. Wish I'd been able to recall Hadley Caliman's Iapetus being the fusion date on Mainstream that you had given props to.

Interesting that the Joe Daley came out on a major label but led to only one more date. Anybody heard the Kenny Dorham Sextet on Cadet with Muhal Richard Abrams and Joe Daley?

My first reaction to the name was "did he switch to tuba?" but that seems to be another guy.

Loved the Braxton, I figure my LP copy is nicked up too bad to play well, but I'll dig it out and give it a try. I'd love to see it on CD again.

Thanks

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I just checked out the final words on the other thread and was struck by an irony. Even though the Art Ensemble made a piece of music celebrating rugged individualism in the face of pressures to conform, they couldn't have made that music unless they themselves had gotten in line, the line called Art Ensemble of Chicago.

There's lots of lines in life, some of them intentionally manipulative, others encrusted with unquestioned stupidity. Yet joining with others to move toward a common goal produces a line. The line starts out based on the common interests of its members. WIth the vigilance of all members it can stay that way.

Occasionally we can hear the results of someone getting out of line, working toward totally different goals while participating in a group activity such as a band.

So choose your lines carefully, but don't fail to get in line if its a line you choose to be in.

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Can y'all be sure that that's Swallow providing the bass and not Carla playing it on synth? The lines are so short that I think it could go either way, and I don't hear Carla otherwise playing on the track.

Besides, I'd hate to have to shatter my illusions of this being porno music ... :g

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Loved the Braxton, I figure my LP copy is nicked up too bad to play well, but I'll dig it out and give it a try. I'd love to see it on CD again.

It was on RCA/Bluebird CD 6579 in 1990, long OOP, but maybe a used copy turns up. I sold mine years ago or I would offer it to you, sorry.

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Can y'all be sure that that's Swallow providing the bass and not Carla playing it on synth? The lines are so short that I think it could go either way, and I don't hear Carla otherwise playing on the track.

I'm 100% sure that it's Swallow playing the bass line + overdubbed melody. Most audible from 06:18 - end of song: clearly Swallow's tone that he gets (apart from instrument/amp setting) playing with a plectrum. Only other possibility is that Carla Bley used Swallow samples, but I don't think this is the case.

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Well, the very name "blindfold" test has an intrigue all its own... ;)

And is it just me, or does Carla Bley just have an intinsic kink stimulation factor built into her image? Not to dismiss her musical accomplishments, which are at the very least formidable, but outside of that, the woman's appearance and persona gets my imagination going down some pretty, uh, "interesting" avenues, and her musical brilliance just heightens the allure.

I'm busted, I know. But am I the only one?

Edited by JSngry
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Can y'all be sure that that's Swallow providing the bass and not Carla playing it on synth? The lines are so short that I think it could go either way, and I don't hear Carla otherwise playing on the track.

Swallow used different sounds for accompaniment and soloing. Very similar to a synth bass, the latter, I admit.

You sure Carla is not on that track? If you're talking about the one on your BT disc 2, I hear organ (Carla), solo bass (Swallow), piano (Willis), guitar (Bullock), horns, and low bass - and the attack of the notes does not sound like a synth bass to me but like the way a bass guitar player phrases - Carla's simply not that good at exact phrasing , and I hear Swallow's sound in that bass. Don't have the whole album any more, but I will get it agian, if only to argue about the bass players with you :g .

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I'm 100% sure that it's Swallow playing the bass line + overdubbed melody. Most audible from 06:18 - end of song: clearly Swallow's tone that he gets (apart from instrument/amp setting) playing with a plectrum. Only other possibility is that Carla Bley used Swallow samples, but I don't think this is the case.

Swallow did NOT use plectrums!!! Saw him live several times and he never did! Did you??? That's his very personal sound, but played with fingers. Even if Carla used samples the phrasing would not be like this.

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And is it just me, or does Carla Bley just have an intinsic kink stimulation factor built into her image? Not to dismiss her musical accomplishments, which are at the very least formidable, but outside of that, the woman's appearance and persona gets my imagination going down some pretty, uh, "interesting" avenues, and her musical brilliance just heightens the allure.

I'm dusted, I know. But am I the only one?

Don't know if it's just you Jim, but it certainly isn't me - she's not my type - but considering her share of lovers and the image she projects ... It seems it worked with you ... :g

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Swallow did NOT use plectrums!!! Saw him live several times and he never did! Did you??? That's his very personal sound, but played with fingers. Even if Carla used samples the phrasing would not be like this.

Swallow does play with plectrums. Between 1991 and 2002 I saw him playing about five or six times. On these occasions, he always used a plectrum. You can get that sound/attack neither with your fingers nor fingernails.

steveswallow.jpg

Look what he is holding between index finger and thumb.

Unlike many of his peers who plugged in and switched on, Swallow treats the electric instrument as an entirely different proposition from its acoustic daddy. Playing with a plectrum, his fluid, rippling lines and resonant chording celebrates the instrument's, er, 'guitarness'. It's made him one of the few electric bassists to be worth much as a soloist, but Swallow's not really interested in grandstanding.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/jazz/reviews/sw...w_damaged.shtml

http://www.jazzozieri.com/Plectrums.htm

Steve Swallow uses a different technique to most players of the Electric Bass, because he uses a plectrum and plays he instrument like a guitar. http://www.musicweb.uk.net/jazz/2001/Oct01/DuetsDVD.htm

I studied with Steve Swallow at Berklee and he taught his students to play

standard finger-style, not with a pick.  Swallow is an exceptional player

with and without a pick; he just happens to prefer a pick for his own stuff. http://groups.google.at/groups?q=swallow+p...gpie.com&rnum=1

Playing with a plectrum is becoming very

limiting to bass players because of the new music that is coming out.

Unless you can play like Steve Swallow with a pick you can really cut

down your usefulness to a band. http://groups.google.at/groups?q=swallow+p...olaf.edu&rnum=2

Edited by rockefeller center
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The "voyeur in the closet" for us listeners, if you will.

I gotta rationalize the kink SOMEHOW!!! :g  :g  :g

Don't send Harry Allen, go yourself - it's more fun and much more exciting than having others tell the story! And I'd say instead of rationalizing you admit your attraction - it's healthier! :g

p.s. Harry Allen only goes for Astrud Gilberto clones - and that's not your type, I'm sure - much too cool B) .

Edited by mikeweil
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:tup

I just wanted to thank you for all the work you have done Jim - with the two discs as well as the thesis of answers provided (and just as importantly reading the banter of the boarders).

Your ability to share your thoughts with such precise spontaneity shows profound streams of conciousness. On the way to literate circular breathing.

I have really enjoyed these discs wholly for the past few weeks. While I can't compare to some of the astute ears here on the board my fascination and attempts to unearth answers on my own, after my initial posting, enlightend me to so much whether on these discs or not. And now with the answers at hand I can explore even further.

I did errantly suspect early on that the thread of the test might have a Chi-town sway and now I see that in fact quite a bit had very few degrees of seperation from there. Booting myself for not calling a couple of the cuts I do now know...'Try Some Ammonia' was always a favorite (you know it's bad and that you need to listen more seriously when something sitting on the shelf goes unrecognized :wacko: ) and a stunning closer. And Wilkerson was a monster. Saw him a couple times live w/ Eight Bold Souls and it was truly like being in the pen with a rogue rhino! And now Hadley Caliman?? and WoodyTheus??? Great Great Stuff!

I'll keep perusing and hope that I can attain just a smidgen when I ready a disc for the crew.

Edited by Man with the Golden Arm
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Thanks for those kind words.

The Chicago thing really happened accidentally, but I myself became aware of it after finishing the final mix and began listening through the discs for the first time. I guess I've got an empathy for the sounds that have come out of that city over the years, perhaps related to me being a Texas jazz musician, another group that seems to all to often get relegated to "second-tier" status in terms of where people reflexively think to look for to find quality jazz that is a little different from the New York mainstream.

I might even go so far as to say that although New York was unquestionably the center of the jazz world for a very, VERY long time, and still is the center of the jazz industry, I think the vast majority of new jazz that I find interesting and/or important is soming from somewhere else these days. Of course, the "seasoning" one gets from living and playing in New York is still nothing to sneeze at, but as far as producing new jazz (and not just of the "avant-garde" variety) that has personality and individuality to spare, a good, albeit far from automatic, case could be made that the action is really happening elsewhere today, especially in Chicago.

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From my own listening habits the past year I would have to agree that a lot of interesting things are happening in Chicago. I have found myself coming to appreciate a lot of Chicago horn players (Ernest Dawkins, Von Freeman, Fred Anderson, Ari Brown, Ken Vandermark and David Boykin come to mind) and the Chicago scene as a whole seems to promote experimentation and individuality. I have even started to go back and listen to some of the giants such as Eddie Harris who I also believe have roots in Chicago.

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Over a year ago I did a brief investigation of James Moody by picking up, Feelin It Together and one of his later Novus LPs. I enjoyed both at the time, but like I often do I moved onto the next investigation without digging much deeper. The Moody track on the blindfold test encouraged me to pick up Never Again and check out Moody again. The LP arrived today and after only one listen while transfering it to CDR I can say this is a terrific recording. Jim pointed out Gladden's strong contribution to the date, but I don't think we should ignore the contribution Tucker made. At times his organ reminded me of my all time favorite organ player, Larry Young. As a result the LP has a somewhat more advanced or urgent feel to it than stereotypical feel good organ dates. Others will probably hear differently, but I was definately feeling a Unity vibe on a couple of the tracks. And yes, Moody is blowing some crazy stuff here. I enjoyed the track Jim selected, but I think my personal favorite tracks are the waltz, "A Little 3 for L.C." and the version of Eddie Harris' "Freedom Jazz Dance". After listening to this I just put Feelin It Together on again and am hearing it with a renewed interest. Both of these desperately need to be reissued on CD.

Jim, thanks again for hipping me to this one.

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Jim pointed out Gladden's strong contribution to the date, but I don't think we should ignore the contribution Tucker made. At times his organ reminded me of my all time favorite organ player, Larry Young.

Tucker and Larry Young were close friends! Tucker dedicated his "Blues for Khalid Yasin" on the Xanadu LP "Triplicity" to him, and they shared a drummer, Eddie Gladden. Have to check the Lp liner if there's more info.

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