Geoff's Guide to Undervalued Jazz Albums

[minew]

Geoff,

If you try shoo him, the yapping will get louder; he will likely bark something with the word PATHETIC in it.

The rest of us are enjoying your well-written and thoughtful posts.

Minew,

Blow it out your ear.

Have any idea how pathetic it is you bring up political affiliations? Why don't you declare I'm a racist and complete the circle?

Call me Kreskin.

[BruceH]

I will hang my head and shame and admit that I have no Herbie Nichols in my collection.

Damnit, man!! Get some!

[Geoff]

thanks for the comments, I appreciate them. Perhaps I should have stated the context of this thread before I went 'straight in' to posting it. What I have written was kind of intended to posted in my University's magazine, where the readers would know little or nothing about jazz (apart from John Coltrane and Miles Davis), hence I apologise if the albums I choose would belittle your musical knowledge, this is not my intention. It is probable that most of you will know the music that I have picked. I just would appreciate discussion on my writing skills, my choice of albums, and just general comments. I think we have worked our way around the difficulties at the beginning of the thread, I am just a newbie in this forum (this is the first time I've ventured out of the 'Funny Rat' thread. So I am still rather clueless to how this forum works.)

If any one could teach me the 'ways' of this forum I would be appreciative.

Like I don't know how the 'album of the week' works, or the 'blindfold test' works.

Could someone explain these sections of the forum to me.

My apologises again, I guess making mistakes can arise to a positives things, as long as you can learn from your mistakes.

So I will take all the comments, in this thread and learn from them!

Edited January 22, 2004 by Geoff

[brownie]

Geoff, not to worry. You seem to learn fast.

This is a friendly place. The problem with your thread is that you set up shop in the middle of the neighborhood without taking the time to say hello to the neighbours.

And those neighbours make this forum. There is a very wide range of interests, opinions here. This makes this forum the great place it is. And there is plenty of room for your views and opinions.

Go visit the various threads and join in the exchange.

Once you will have learned the basic rules of protocol (there are very few of those) you will be like a fish in water. And the water is just fine here!

[couw]

I want to second Jim's (JSngry that is) suggestion that you start a new thread for each album. Write a small introduction where this stuff comes from, why it was written etc. Add a closing statement, inviting opinions, be it on your writing or on the music. You may want to do a search of the forum before you post on an album.

[couw]

and I want to second second Dan's suggestion to check out the Album of the Week (AotW) forum.

[couw]

and I would like to tell Dan that I think it's cool he apologised and that I like him much better when he is cool & friendly than when he is playing board police.

[couw]

(how many posts was that? my counter is spinning like crazy!)

[Dan Gould]

Like I don't know how the 'album of the week' works, or the 'blindfold test' works.

Could someone explain these sections of the forum to me.

Geoff,

I'm sending you a Private Message on these matters.

[brownie]

Dan, you're behaving like a true gentleman!

Your good side shows

[Guest Chaney]

Hi Geoff!

Venturing from the 'Funny Rat' thread... AND WITHOUT MY PERMISSION? BASTARD!

I don't have the Waldron and I've only borrowed the Nichols set from the local library.

Can't really say what my expectations were as regards Nichols but I didn't have to listen very far into the set to realize that Herbie was an amazing talent. I really MUST buy this set -- soon.

AND SO SHOULD YOU, JOHN. You'll most likely be in for a pleasant musical shock.

[Guest Chaney]

Anyone recall the postings of 'Severius'? Was that here or on the Blue Note board?

(I was going to suggest that Geoff read the posts of 'Severius' to learn how NOT to post.)

ON THE EDIT: Just did a search. Must have been BN.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Chaney

[John B]

I really MUST buy this set -- soon.

AND SO SHOULD YOU, JOHN. You'll most likely be in for a pleasant musical shock.

I would love to, but my cd budget is currently completely blown, thanks, in part, to you.

I got the Leos in the mail the other day. Time to start exploring! I'll post my thoughts back over at Funny Rat.

[Dan Gould]

Please ignore the schnauzer and continue posting. He'll chase you for a couple of blocks, yapping loudly, and then go back to his yard, the politics forum.

Oh really? Let's see:

Dan: 638 posts in the political forum out of 2070 posts total. In other words, when I post, seven out of ten times it is somewhere other than politics.

Minew: 93 posts in the political forum out of 183 posts total. In other words, when you post, there's a better than 50% chance that post is in the political forum.

So I can hardly claim it as my "yard". So many of your droppings land there.

[Geoff]

I wrote up a little thing on the actual music of Herbie Nichols.

I'm not too happy with it, I think it came out a bit disjointed and non-flowing. However any input on how I can improve my reviewing skills would be appreciated. I want to review music for the University Magazine, it will be a good platform to move on from.

-----

Herbie Nichols' music occupies somewhat of a middle ground between pre-bop swing piano and be-bop music with additional influences of african rhythms and classical music. 20th Century Classical composer Morton Feldman once noted that 'music seems to be understood best by its proximity to other music that is more familiar', and it is Monk who serves as the best comparison.

However in reality the music of Nichols and Monk are very different, while Monk favoured a slightly more percussive and disjointed approach, many of Nichols compositions feature quick successions of notes, that evoke both Art Tatum and Bud Powell. Yet most pieces by Nichols did explore new rythmic approaches that had not been heard in jazz. Clear examples of this unique approach are evident on pieces such as 'The Third World', 'Blue Chopsticks' and the beginning of Cro-Magnon Nights'. These pieces evoke a mood similar to what Cecil Taylor would explore on one of his early albums on Blue Note 'Jazz Advance'.

In some pieces Nichols employs a call and response stance, while on others he seems to meld his piano into the piece, using his left-hand to create a platform for his scurries in his right hand. In the 'The Gift' Nichols slowly claims up the scale by repeating the same theme at different keys. Such experiments of scale and repetition are prevelent on many of his compositions. For example the decending scales on 'House Party Starting' , the repeated use of two phases on 'Nick At T's', his use of his left hand repeating the same chords over and over on ''Orse At Sfari'.

Perhaps Nichols was more subtle than Monk in many ways, his experiments are less obvious and he never quite took the same amount of the limelight as Monk when performing in a trio. Nichols was happy enough to be the equal member of a trio, rather than the specific leader. It is this closeness to a tight knit trio that Nchols had that makes the Blue Note recordings so valuable. The contributions of the drummers are significant, and are a key factor in the success of Nichols music. Art Blakey manages to maintain a high level of creativity and interaction with Nichols and bassist Al McKibbon.

The Complete Blue Note Recordings of Herbie Nichols, is highly recommended to anyone interested in rhythmic and scale based explorations.

-------

Perhaps I will follow the advice, and start new threads for the next albums I want to talk about. Also I would really like to be chosen for the album of the week in the future.

[Nate Dorward]

"The Gift"? Surely "The Gig".

& Taylor's first album wasn't a Blue Note album, it was simply reissued on that label years later.

I think the reviews are OK, barring a few comma splices, typos & so forth, but don't quite understand why the albums are considered "neglected"--they've received plenty of notice over the years from serious jazz fans & Nichols in particular has been on a (posthumous) hot streak for the past decade or so. -- I don't think, though, you've really grasped what's original about Nichols' music in the last piece--e.g. I don't see what's so remarkable about the use of scales & repeated patterns (basic elements of composition, surely). The liner notes to the various issues (Rudd's & Kimbrough's) point in more fruitful directions--e.g. Nichols' very audacious harmonic thinking ("The Third World", with its pre-Trane use of movement in thirds, is a good example) & his increasing distance from AABA song format--lots of extended sections, half-bars, extra sections & intros, & eventually, in tunes like "The Gig" & "Query", entirely pushing beyond regular song-form.

[Geoff]

"The Gift"? Surely "The Gig".

& Taylor's first album wasn't a Blue Note album, it was simply reissued on that label years later.

I think the reviews are OK, barring a few comma splices, typos & so forth, but don't quite understand why the albums are considered "neglected"--they've received plenty of notice over the years from serious jazz fans & Nichols in particular has been on a (posthumous) hot streak for the past decade or so. -- I don't think, though, you've really grasped what's original about Nichols' music in the last piece--e.g. I don't see what's so remarkable about the use of scales & repeated patterns (basic elements of composition, surely). The liner notes to the various issues (Rudd's & Kimbrough's) point in more fruitful directions--e.g. Nichols' very audacious harmonic thinking ("The Third World", with its pre-Trane use of movement in thirds, is a good example) & his increasing distance from AABA song format--lots of extended sections, half-bars, extra sections & intros, & eventually, in tunes like "The Gig" & "Query", entirely pushing beyond regular song-form.

oops, I meant to say The Gig.

I am not a trained musician, so I don't know much about the technically side of music, hence my description of the music is lacking I admit.

[Geoff]

this idea, came from a different forum, where most people didn't know anything about jazz. So some of the artists covers aren't too undervalued here, but are by the general public.

[mikeweil]

However I thought it would be a novel idea to present my individual prospective on jazz music on this forum.

Yes, why not? Go ahead!

Curious about your next choices. I have to admit I expected even rarer albums.

[mikeweil]

What I have written was kind of intended to posted in my University's magazine, where the readers would know little or nothing about jazz (apart from John Coltrane and Miles Davis), hence I apologise if the albums I choose would belittle your musical knowledge, this is not my intention. It is probable that most of you will know the music that I have picked. I just would appreciate discussion on my writing skills, my choice of albums, and just general comments.

Of course that makes a difference.

Under that aspect your choices are excellent, aiming at a reading audience that knows not much beyond the great names.

I'll read them again more carefully, and give you feedback later.

[connoisseur series500]

(Suprise: he's a republican.)

What a dumbfuck thing to say.

Did you miss a winking smilie or something?

[connoisseur series500]

BTW, Welcome to the board, Geoff!

[Nate Dorward]

I am not a trained musician, so I don't know much about the technically side of music, hence my description of the music is lacking I admit.

You needn't really go into a lot of technical detail about the music's construction, especially if that's not your forte. (Though I think probably most really good jazz critics have at least some experience with an instrument, even if only at an amateur level.) But in any case it's far better to just comment in more open-ended & suggestive terms. To suggest that Herbie Nichols' music is of interest to those who want to hear novel uses of scales isn't going to make too many listeners run out & buy the album......

[connoisseur series500]

I am not a trained musician, so I don't know much about the technically side of music, hence my description of the music is lacking I admit.

You gotta be kidding! Most of your description flew over my head in terms of technical description.

I like what you've written so far, though I don't understand quite a bit of it.

For me, unfortunately, I had difficulty appreciating Nichol's music and I sold his complete sessions on Blue Note.

[Jazzmoose]

Interesting writing, Geoff. And I'm sure you've discovered by now that the back-and-forth snarling here has less to do with you than you first thought...