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The CD/Vinyl Debate Part 765


A Lark Ascending

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Okay, I get that, but it's the best of both worlds. Can't fix the past and supply what wasn't there. I neither listen exclusively to lps nor cds, I listen to both. I don't like pesky digital files, so I don't have to worry about not listening to lps on the go, or needle-dropping. I can buy the JSP Calloway material and the IARJC Kansas City lps and enjoy both. For the rest of my life. Life is good and music is a great part of it and I'm no longer limiting myself to digital. There's enough in both formats to seek out and enjoy the rest of my days.

Now I'm off to lunch with my gal, another wonderful aspect of life. :)

Quite right. Quite right, too.

MG

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Well, that missing dynamic range is essentially the same thing. Something that simply isn't there.

Yep, exactly what I've been trying to say. You can't restore what's been removed by twiddling your system, it simply isn't there anymore. Edited by J.A.W.
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I've never once disputed that. Again, what I am saying is that in my experience there are more dynamics there than you probably realize that can be accessed and made enjoyable. You don't believe that, I've experienced it and play around with it and enjoy more discs in my collection that way. I prefer this than being constantly disappointed and leery of discs. You're welcome to your opinions, I just in my own home have had different experience.

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I've never once disputed that.

Well, you certainly gave me that impression more than once.

Again, what I am saying is that in my experience there are more dynamics there than you probably realize that can be accessed and made enjoyable. You don't believe that, I've experienced it and play around with it and enjoy more discs in my collection that way. I prefer this than being constantly disappointed and leery of discs. You're welcome to your opinions, I just in my own home have had different experience.

Whatever makes you happy.
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I've lost count of the times you've been telling us about the way you've twiddled your system to try and make things sound right to your ears. Don't get me wrong, of course you can do what you like with your gear, but it gets a bit boring to read about the same thing over and over again. I'm just being honest and trying not to be offensive, but that's how those posts come across as far as I'm concerned.

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Edited to say: oh well. It's not that many times, I just have been tenacious trying to make that point, that the lack of dynamics is over-expressed and there is more there than most systems bring out. I get bored about some of the things you are definitive about and repeat, and your passion for correcting grammar and spelling. I'm passionate about audio.

Part of being on a forum. You don't have to read my posts, I don't have to read yours.

Edited by jazzbo
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Well imagine how I feel when you talk about how this or that is loud or compressed or all of them sound bad.

Part of being on a forum. You don't have to read my posts, I don't have to read yours.

That may be so, but these days I'm only giving my opinion on CDs I've heard when someone's asking people what they think of the sound quality. I'm no longer posting unasked opinions. And you're right, I don't have to read your posts, but I do because I find some of them interesting.
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Well imagine how I feel when you talk about how this or that is loud or compressed or all of them sound bad over and over with such absolute definitiveness. More often than not I'm trying to be helpful and show a way that the sound can be improved, but you don't want to go there, that's fine. But just as you don't refrain to correct someone's grammar or spelling, I guess I haven't been refraining from trying to show there's another way to get some enjoyment. But I'll refrain from here on in, don't want you being bored.

Part of being on a forum. You don't have to read my posts, I don't have to read yours.

Just read your edited post. I'll refrain from responding, as things only seem to get worse. Have a nice day.
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I've never been able to "fix" an over-compressed CD. How can EQ or level changes get back lost dynamic range? If the low level signals have been boosted up to be nearly as high as the levels that were already high, there's really no way to selectively lower them back. They're masked by the other signals. There is no tool out there that can do this as a post process. Hence, I don't believe it can't be done.

Now, Lon, don't get me wrong and assume I'm calling you a liar here. There are things anyone can do to tweak their system to make anything sound better. All of the things you do are perfectly acceptable things to do and seem to help in your situation. However, the listening fatigue I get from listening to an over-compressed CD does not seem to be fixable on any of my many systems - it's always there and I hear it.

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Kevin, just because you haven't been able to achieve listening without fatigue doesn't mean that it can't be achieved.

I will repeat myself one more time. Power treatment is key, it lowers noise system-wide and allows what dynamics are there to be more recognizable. Also improves the high frequency sound by removing "hash." I treat my power with a PS Audio Power Plant Premier, and also two PowerBases, one to the Premier, one to the transport and DAC, and also use AC-10 and AC-12 power cords. Makes a big and significant difference.

My DAC allows me to select five different digital filters. And also to apply different oversampling to the signal, or no oversampling at all. These create subtle differences that can influence harshness, introduce smoothness, etc.

I can also bring what dynamics are there to more prominence by "riding the gain" between three gain stages. This is something that Decware owners and Steve Deckert discuss on their forum. Riding the gain can also "thicken" the sound of a "thin" recording, and vice versa, to a degree.

I've spent good money on interconnect and speaker cables as well that can reveal a bit more of what's there. I also have a supply of different rectifier tubes that alter the sound of the amplifier and can make program material appear a bit more dynamic or vice versa. Ditto input tubes, voltage regulation tubes (my amp has voltage regulator tubes for the input stage as well as the output tubes). I can also adjust the tweeter output of my speakers to alter the tonal balance, and that influences perceived dynamics. I can even change capacitors in the minimal crossover, which has an effect as well. All these things are incremental but do add up to a more enjoyable sound. Not everything sounds wonderful by any means. But I have been able to lessen listening fatigue for many discs.

All these things and more can be done. I realize you're not going to try them, and I believe you when you say that your system won't help in this regard. But that's not true of all systems. I spent a lot of money on these and I know how fortunate I am that I can do so. They really have allowed me to enjoy listening to many discs that others whine about. I am happy that I don't have to be frustrated and disappointed purchasing many discs. And I enjoy the hardware and its interaction, just as I used to enjoy setting up to record.

I'm discovering vinyl is easier to set up to enjoy and at a lower price point for similar sonic quality, but that's another story.

I'll say no more, don't want to increase the boredom apparently rampant with my posts along these lines. :)

Edited by jazzbo
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And I'm with J.A.W. that if you have to go through all of that...

Also, what Mr. Bresnahan is saying is also true. Running audio through flat settings isn't going to be any different than "fine tuning" it through tone controls/EQ. It may sound "better" to your ears, but the finished product remains the same no matter what you think you may be doing with it.

On higher end systems, tone controls shouldn't even be a concern. EQ's were designed to mask inefficiencies in lower quality audio products, IMO. Truly transparent mid-to-high end systems should reproduce music perfectly (to their ability) while bypassing any and all tone controls.

Either way, based upon what I've been reading here, most folks (myself included) seem to be reacting more to your audio snobbery more than anything else. You're not more fortunate, that's just something you need to tell yourself to as a form of justification. And we're not less fortunate. Besides, these 42 year old ears of mine really don't care as much anymore. They are perfectly content listening to mp3's on an iPod with mid-level ear buds as they were when I used to listen to my buddy's tube amp (can't recall the maker) with Martin Logan electrostatic speakers.

Hell, I even run my lower-end Harman Kardon/Polk Audio/Velodyne main system on bypass. And it sounds rather good.

Hey Kevin, you should post a link to that site that was started by all those cats that were banned from that one producer's message board (for not properly kissing his ass, of course). Can't recall the names, but their site was a hoot!

Edited by Scott Dolan
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I'm sorry if I'm coming across as an audio snob, I don't feel that I am. By fortunate I simply meant personally fortunate to have the funds to pursue this. Some people buy lots of liquor with their discretionary funds, or fancy watches, or expensive cars, travel to distant places, or go out clubbing looking for companionship. I don't do any of those things, this is what I do with my money. And the sonic difference is there, especially when you consider audio fatigue as Kevin was referencing. And there's not a tone control in my system. Not one. Though there's nothing wrong with tone controls really, if they allow you to enjoy music listening.

I don't feel I'm a snob. I have enjoyed very modest systems that were quite musical. I'm happy for anyone who enjoys their system whatever the level. If they can't enjoy some recordings, I feel I know ways to make that less of a deal, but my presentation of this seems lacking as several haven't seen that's what I mean. I don't believe that RVGs and others are as "bad" as many assume, I feel their bad sonics can be improved. Should they be put out this way? Wouldn't be my first choice, but dealing with them head on and trying to make them more enjoyable is a choice, as is avoiding them and I guess trashing them. Again, I've discovered there are more dynamics there to be brought out, though it does take work on a system (work which will improve all other playback as well). I have learned my lesson, I'll keep that to myself.

I'm glad you're happy with your system, I'm happy with mine. And apparently I can listen to discs that you won't, which I'm also happy about. I only object to your blanket condemnation of RVG reissues as I personally know that they vary in their sonic presentation, I have every one. You're free to believe what you want, and also make fun of me if you wish. Doesn't bother me. I'll let you trash all the RVGs too now if you want. I think my position is clear here, I understand why many can't or won't explore audio this way, and just feel personally fortunate that I want to and can. It's not that I "have to do all that." I enjoy this hobby.


The lack of civility displayed from time to time on this board bothers me greatly.

Bothers me too as a participant, a creator or receiver. Sorry, and I'm stepping away from this thread.

Edited by jazzbo
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That's cool, brother. I appreciate your insight and explanation of your hobby.

You just need to be aware of how statements like this:

I realize you're not going to try them, and I believe you when you say that your system won't help in this regard.

...come across.

And I have no intention of "trashing" all of the RVG discs. I just haven't been happy with most of the ones I've heard. And no, no system exists that will make that final product sound any better. The final mix is exactly what the name implies.

Final.

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Scott, Kevin and I have talked about his system and mine before, off the board as well as on another, I know what he has, what he believes is worth spending money on and what not, and thus I said that I knew he wasn't going to try these things, and that his system didn't include some aspects that would show him improvement.

The final mix is the final mix. But extracting what is in that mix differs from system to system. Some will hide the flaws, some accentuate them, some can help them to be all they can be, and that can be more enjoyable than on another system.

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My biggest concern about a lot of the vinyl proponents' arguments is when they (not talking Lon here) start spouting off something about a cost/benefit ratio. It's pretty rampant on some audiophile forums. Basically, the way it goes is if you prefer CD over LP, you've somehow cheaped-out on your stereo system. The implication is that if you haven't dropped a significant amount of money on your vinyl rig, you can't judge the difference.

I find this attitude to be complete garbage. If you are playing a turntable and a CD player through the same preamp/amplification system, that's all that matters. There are many incrementally better CD players. There are many incrementally better turntables. There are very few *significantly* better CD players and turntables.

I've listened to a lot of audio over the years. When comparing head to head, I have never been able to point to one CD player or turntable over another and stated with absolute certainty, "That's the one"! Subtle differences - sure - but absolute differences? Not really.

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I'm enjoying reading Jazzbo's posts, and am learning a lot from them. I'd hate it if he was somehow bullied into not sharing his point of view. We really need to let each other talk more; you'll never learn from something that was never posted. When in doubt, ignore.

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I'm enjoying reading Jazzbo's posts, and am learning a lot from them. I'd hate it if he was somehow bullied into not sharing his point of view. We really need to let each other talk more; you'll never learn from something that was never posted. When in doubt, ignore.

Agreed.

Lon, your viewpoint (which I believe to be trying to make do with less than ideal recordings rather than ignoring them altogether) is much appreciated. While I don't have the type of system that allows me to do much tweaking, at least I have some ideas now :)

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