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1 hour ago, ghost of miles said:

Ironic, isn't it, that in the last four years the NY team that got closest to the World Series was Girardi's 2017 swan song--and in a season when they weren't expected to be competing at that level.

In the present-day postseason, I'm not shocked that the Rays are rampaging over the Astros... but I am mildly surprised that the Braves are handling the Dodgers with such ease so far (outside of L.A.'s furious near-comeback in the 9th last night).  Would a potential Atlanta-Tampa Bay matchup be the first all-southern MLB World Series?  

No, believe it or not, the St. Louis Cardinals played the St. Louis Browns(!!!???) in the 1944 World Series, I think St. Louis is considered southern, isn't it? Also, the Cards played Texas in the World Series (sorry to bring that one up JSangray!)

1944 World Series

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OK, that is bizarre. Last year the Braves gave up a record 10 runs in the first inning of a playoff game against the Cardinals. Today they gave up *11* runs in the first inning against the Dodgers. What a nightmare deja vu for Braves fans.

17 minutes ago, Matthew said:

No, believe it or not, the St. Louis Cardinals played the St. Louis Browns(!!!???) in the 1944 World Series, I think St. Louis is considered southern, isn't it? Also, the Cards played Texas in the World Series (sorry to bring that one up JSangray!)

1944 World Series

Forgot about the all-St. Louis series! But I tend to think of St. Louis as a midwestern city. Until recent decades there haven’t been many southern-based MLB teams. Braves moved to Atlanta in the mid-1960s, right? And then you had the addition of the Astros and Rangers, followed by the Rays and the Marlins. Odd to me that Memphis hasn’t had an MLB team... Charlotte seems like another city that might viably sustain a team at that level. 

Ten of the Dodgers’ 11 runs scored with two outs, and all of it starting with Mookie being ruled safe on a replay after first AB of the game. Incredible. 

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Historically, Missouri had been considered a Southern state. In the Civil War, it (along with Kentucky and Delaware) was a border state.

Nashville, not Memphis, is considered a favorite  to add a MLB team if there is future expansion.

The 10 runs they gave up against the Cards was more significant than the ones they gave up tonight because that was a deciding game. 

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Miami is not the south, properly understood. And Tampa ... not exactly southern the way North Florida is. And I was told in no uncertain terms in grad school that LBJ was a Texan, not a southerner, and that there are material differences. 

So really the only southern MLB team is the one from Atlanta.

And to think I really popped into this thread to state that the Rays cannot blow this series.  I would be extremely aggravated if any other MLB team ever does what the Red Sox accomplished in the 2004 ALCS.

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2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Miami is not the south, properly understood. And Tampa ... not exactly southern the way North Florida is. And I was told in no uncertain terms in grad school that LBJ was a Texan, not a southerner, and that there are material differences. 

So really the only southern MLB team is the one from Atlanta.

And to think I really popped into this thread to state that the Rays cannot blow this series.  I would be extremely aggravated if any other MLB team ever does what the Red Sox accomplished in the 2004 ALCS.

I always taught in history classes that the "classic definition" of a southern state was membership in the confederacy, has that changed now?

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2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Miami is not the south, properly understood. And Tampa ... not exactly southern the way North Florida is. And I was told in no uncertain terms in grad school that LBJ was a Texan, not a southerner, and that there are material differences. 

So really the only southern MLB team is the one from Atlanta.

And to think I really popped into this thread to state that the Rays cannot blow this series.  I would be extremely aggravated if any other MLB team ever does what the Red Sox accomplished in the 2004 ALCS.

I wouldn’t start sweating it yet re the Rays-Astros series. They’re a much better team (in terms of pitching, anyway) than the 2004 Yankees, and this year’s Astros certainly aren’t as good as the 2004 Red Sox. 

It’s interesting how people define the South. I’m definitely aware of the more micro-regional categorizations that you cite... but as a damn Yankee (in more ways than one :g), I grew up thinking of the South as all of the states that were aligned against the North in the Civil War. I haven’t traveled through the South as much as I’d like to, though my girlfriend and I spent a wonderful few days in Memphis a couple of years ago. But for me *Louisville* even feels a bit like a southern city (Kentucky as the “gateway to the South” and all that jazz). Even southern Indiana, where I live, is sometimes said to have a southern vibe in terms of cultural attitudes (and among the Black community my hometown of Indianapolis was/is sometimes pejoratively referred to as “up South”).  Anyway... I still think a Braves-Rays series would be a neat geographical matchup—even if the games themselves will be played in California!

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These Dodgers, what happens to them in the post season? It always seems when things get tight, they disappear. I DO NOT LIKE THE WAY ROBERTS MANAGES EITHER, in big games he's frozen into some kind of predetermined game plan, and by heaven, nothing's going move him off that plan! Kershaw, come on, if anyone followed the Dodgers, you know that he should have come out after five innings. The idea of manufacturing runs has become a lost art for the Dodgers (and most teams), what ever happened to the idea that "little baseball" can win games? Lone gone in this day and age.

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49 minutes ago, Matthew said:

I always taught in history classes that the "classic definition" of a southern state was membership in the confederacy, has that changed now?

Probably not. But I've been out of the Political Science world since 1990.  Jeez I got a lot of the literature to catch up on!

38 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

I wouldn’t start sweating it yet re the Rays-Astros series. They’re a much better team (in terms of pitching, anyway) than the 2004 Yankees, and this year’s Astros certainly aren’t as good as the 2004 Red Sox. 

It’s interesting how people define the South. I’m definitely aware of the more micro-regional categorizations that you cite... but as a damn Yankee (in more ways than one :g), I grew up thinking of the South as all of the states that were aligned against the North in the Civil War. I haven’t traveled through the South as much as I’d like to, though my girlfriend and I spent a wonderful few days in Memphis a couple of years ago. But for me *Louisville* even feels a bit like a southern city (Kentucky as the “gateway to the South” and all that jazz). Even southern Indiana, where I live, is sometimes said to have a southern vibe in terms of cultural attitudes (and among the Black community my hometown of Indianapolis was/is sometimes pejoratively referred to as “up South”).  Anyway... I still think a Braves-Rays series would be a neat geographical matchup—even if the games themselves will be played in California!

When I was in St Louis in the late 80s I certainly recognized southern cultural elements and similarities to north Florida.

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55 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

I wouldn’t start sweating it yet re the Rays-Astros series. They’re a much better team (in terms of pitching, anyway) than the 2004 Yankees, and this year’s Astros certainly aren’t as good as the 2004 Red Sox. 

It’s interesting how people define the South. I’m definitely aware of the more micro-regional categorizations that you cite... but as a damn Yankee (in more ways than one :g), I grew up thinking of the South as all of the states that were aligned against the North in the Civil War. I haven’t traveled through the South as much as I’d like to, though my girlfriend and I spent a wonderful few days in Memphis a couple of years ago. But for me *Louisville* even feels a bit like a southern city (Kentucky as the “gateway to the South” and all that jazz). Even southern Indiana, where I live, is sometimes said to have a southern vibe in terms of cultural attitudes (and among the Black community my hometown of Indianapolis was/is sometimes pejoratively referred to as “up South”).  Anyway... I still think a Braves-Rays series would be a neat geographical matchup—even if the games themselves will be played in California!

Southern Indiana was settled by many pioneers from Kentucky so that may give it a Southern vibe; Thomas Lincoln (Lincoln’s father) moved there in 1816. Northern Indiana was settled by people from New England so it may be a bit different than the southern part of the state  

The World Series will be taking place in Texas, giving the NL winner a slight advantage in terms of familiarity with Globe Field. 

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

I always taught in history classes that the "classic definition" of a southern state was membership in the confederacy, has that changed now?

No and yes.  Kentucky was a border state and did not secede but you’d consider it part of the South. Although Tennessee did secede, Eastern Tennessee was pro Union whereas the West was pro Confederacy.  There were also sections of Alabama that were strong pro Union. US District Court Judge Frank Johnson of Alabama, who handed down many key integration rulings in the 1950s and 1960s, was from a northern Alabama county that had opposed secession. History runs deep. 

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7 minutes ago, Matthew said:

These Dodgers, what happens to them in the post season? It always seems when things get tight, they disappear. I DO NOT LIKE THE WAY ROBERTS MANAGES EITHER, in big games he's frozen into some kind of predetermined game plan, and by heaven, nothing's going move him off that plan! Kershaw, come on, if anyone followed the Dodgers, you know that he should have come out after five innings. The idea of manufacturing runs has become a lost art for the Dodgers (and most teams), what ever happened to the idea that "little baseball" can win games? Lone gone in this day and age.

I don't know what happens but I am torn between my affection for Dave Roberts and Mookie Betts and my long festering suspicion of them as the NY Yankees of the west coast, throwing money all over the place just without, you know, the championships.  Wait a minute - they ARE the NY Yankees of the west coast:

Gobs of money

No championships to show for it.

 :g

 

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21 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

I don't know what happens but I am torn between my affection for Dave Roberts and Mookie Betts and my long festering suspicion of them as the NY Yankees of the west coast, throwing money all over the place just without, you know, the championships.  Wait a minute - they ARE the NY Yankees of the west coast:

Gobs of money

No championships to show for it.

 :g

 

You're right! And as how the Yankees keep blathering on and on and on about The Yankee Way®so the Dodgers keep on yammering and yammering about The Dodger Way®. Just win some World Series' before the blather and yammer please! 

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38 minutes ago, Brad said:

Southern Indiana was settled by many pioneers from Kentucky so that may give it a Southern vibe; Thomas Lincoln (Lincoln’s father) moved there in 1816. Northern Indiana was settled by people from New England so it may be a bit different than the southern part of the state  

The World Series will be taking place in Texas, giving the NL winner a slight advantage in terms of familiarity with Globe Field. 

No and yes.  Kentucky was a border state and did not secede but you’d consider it part of the South. Although Tennessee did secede, Eastern Tennessee was pro Union whereas the West was pro Confederacy.  There were also sections of Alabama that were strong pro Union. US District Court Judge Frank Johnson of Alabama, who handed down many key integration rulings in the 1950s and 1960s, was from a northern Alabama county that had opposed secession. History runs deep. 

My bad on the World Series location—I thought the bubble was staying in California for the duration. Well, then, a potential Braves-Rays matchup taking place in Texas... that really *would* be an all-southern World Series! :g

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I think have the DH actually helped Roberts manage, I was deathly afraid that he'd tinker around and pull Urias for the ninth. Also, knowing anyone he brought in had to face two batters dampened the over managing that Roberts in notorious for.

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29 minutes ago, Matthew said:

I think have the DH actually helped Roberts manage, I was deathly afraid that he'd tinker around and pull Urias for the ninth. Also, knowing anyone he brought in had to face two batters dampened the over managing that Roberts in notorious for.

Dodgers defied history by coming back from 2-0 and 3-1 deficits. They will be favored but I’m not a fan of that team. I hope the Rays can pull it out. 

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1 hour ago, Brad said:

Dodgers defied history by coming back from 2-0 and 3-1 deficits. They will be favored but I’m not a fan of that team. I hope the Rays can pull it out. 

Yeah, I think that despite my affection for Roberts and Betts I am going to have to root for the Rays.  I'll go with Mookie if/when they face the Yankees in the WS. Otherwise its Red Sox, Cubs and whoever is playing the Yankees and the Dodgers.

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12 hours ago, sonnymax said:

This is a great Game 7.

 

It sure was--I followed it online last night while working on various tasks around the house.  Agree with Matthew that the DH rule may have helped out Roberts... is MLB considering making that permanent for the NL after this year?

I'm normally an AL partisan, though I have no antipathy for the Dodgers, and while I have great respect for the organization and the team's performance on the field, I find the Rays to be the most insufferable, whiny "underdog" team (one that by normal rights would be sympathetic and likeable) that's ever come down the MLB pike.* (And they're sure as hell no "underdog" to anybody who's followed the AL East over the past dozen years, despite their ongoing we-don't-get-no respect schtick. Outside of one mediocre stretch in the mid-teens, they've either made the postseason or been in the running every year since 2008.)  So I'll just be pulling for a great series.  Without a deep sense of data for both teams (though I'm much more familiar with the Rays this season, owing to their AL East membership), I'd say slight advantage Rays, but that's based only on what I've seen in a limited number of games.  And Kevin Cash has done an excellent job of managing his pitching staff throughout these no-day-off matchups. Wouldn't be surprised to see this one go the full seven as well.  

*(Note of apology if I've overlooked the presence of any longstanding Rays fans in these threads.)

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