Dan Gould Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 16 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said: Not wanting to get deeper into the Young Lions or Neo-Bop aspect (due to insufficient personal exposure) but as for these "musical developments", that's something I am rather wary of. Are these "deveopments" a one-way street one HAS to walk, or aren't they rather ONE BRANCH of various different developments that you can decide to follow or not (or choose which of these you want to follow)? Personally I still feel (just like with earlier "developments") that this is not a linear, one-way thing but a matter of branching out in an increasing number of different directions that you can explore or not, take up or discard (ignore). As with all other musics, it is a matter of what you like and not a matter of what you MUST go along with (in the - very relative - name of "progress"? - to the exclusion of what developments had their origins in earlier periods?). Some developments are more radical than others but is this to say that only the most radical ones are the legitimate ones and everything else automatically is "moldy fig-ish"? IMO there is a wealth of nuances in between that may be much more satisfactory to many (based - again - on personal musical preferences which is all that this all about anyway). I'm not saying there are developments that must be followed. I am just describing how I see these musicians. I land on the "you can be a creative and valuable musician playing a style that was being supplanted around the time you were born" side of the fence. A lot of that is because I was discovering this music at the same time these "young lion" neo-boppers were getting their initial push. So a Brian Lynch record that sounded like a mid-60s BN reissue sounded great to my ears. And still does. I would probably list a lot of musicians from this era that I still listen to ... if I were making an effort to delve back in the stacks to pull them out. Jim Rotondi is one name that comes to mind. I have a lot of his Sharp Nine recordings, haven't listened though in ages. I am sure I'd enjoy them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzcorner Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 3 hours ago, Dan Gould said: Now I'm curious if that "Uptown Ruler" track is the Marsalis composition from one of those "Soul Gestures" volumes. It's a Mardi Gras Indian thing. Harrison is a chief don't you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam_44 Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Dan Gould said: Now I'm curious if that "Uptown Ruler" track is the Marsalis composition from one of those "Soul Gestures" volumes. I haven’t listened to they Wynton album in a long time but I’m pretty sure I remember them being two different compositions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 `Just checked the Candid CD, it's credited as a Harrison original. Cyril Neville, Uptown Ruler: http://uptownruler.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted January 1, 2021 Report Share Posted January 1, 2021 (edited) On 1/1/2021 at 9:10 AM, JSngry said: It's a Mardi Gras Indian thing. Harrison is a chief don't you know. He also leads a New Orleans soul/funk band and is Christian Scott’s uncle. I heard him last year at Snug Harbor with Lonnie Smith and with the band of Cuban percussionist Alexey Marti. Edited March 8, 2022 by kh1958 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) Over the last year or so I've listened to most of the albums in this thread a couple of times. I have to say that it's surprising how comparatively low the hit rate is for the core "Young Lion" movement. Perhaps other than two obvious Marsalises, and Harrison / Blanchard, there's very little I'll be revisiting. Once you get to the slightly later cohorts like Hargrove, Payton or Carter, or even later with pure genre players like Eric Alexander, the records really improve in quality. I shouldn't be surprised, given the very lukewarm feeling in the (very helpful) responses to the thread. But it is still weird how poorly these records compare to even chronologically adjacent traditionalist bop records by other younger musicians from the late 70s (e.g. Ricky Ford or the musicians in Steps) or mid to late 90s (e.g. the 3 mentioned above), let alone the slightly older cohort of bop players like Woody Shaw or Billy Harper. Presumably dry production and inexperienced players aren't a great combo, and that's most of what's to blame, but even then... Edited March 7, 2022 by Rabshakeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 I started listening to jazz long after the controversies that this bunch brought up had already ceased to be live debates, and after the critical consensus was formed that bop disappeared in 1970 (the widely accepted Red Clay End Point thesis). I think that before I started to investigate for myself, I had assumed that the reason why Marsalis was famous was because he had been in some way responsible for bringing back the sort of high quality bop that the punters supposedly craved. Once you become aware of the very active and impressive bop ecosystems of the 1970s before the bop revival and then the very successful and popular work from the revival's early stages (e.g. VSOP, Dexter Gordon, etc.), all of which preceded Marsalis, the continuing critical focus on the controversy over the Young Lions, even once the marketing budgets had stopped flowing, starts looking weirder. I had been wondering whether I had missed some gems, but it really doesn't appear so. Bottom line: to me, this really does not appear in retrospect to have been a particularly strong period in the history of post-1970 bop music, even if one narrowly focuses on the most conservative side of post-1970 bop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 I have only one album by any of these guys, Terance Blanchard's Jazz in Film. I listen to it once every few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HutchFan Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 15 hours ago, Rabshakeh said: Bottom line: to me, this really does not appear in retrospect to have been a particularly strong period in the history of post-1970 bop music, even if one narrowly focuses on the most conservative side of post-1970 bop. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) In my opinion, there's nothing wrong, in itself, with the sort of conservatively minded hard bop and post bop these guys played. What's the problem is that these guys just didn't make that many good records. It's just hard to understand why these guys weren't better. Flowers picked too soon and wilting fast; too much money and studio interference impeding actual development; stupid ideology that shuts down interesting concepts. Edited March 8, 2022 by Rabshakeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jk666 Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Not so much the 80s Young Lions, but I still listen to a lot of the 90s guys...Brad Mehldau, Josh Redman, Peter Bernstein, Larry Goldings, Mark Turner, Roy Hargrove, Jason Moran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 16 hours ago, Rabshakeh said: (the widely accepted Red Clay End Point thesis). I What book is this in? I think I skipped class that semester? What kind of Commie professors were these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JSngry said: What book is this in? I think I skipped class that semester? What kind of Commie professors were these? Universally acknowledged fact: Between the release of Red Clay by Freddie Hubbard in May 1970 and Wynton Marsalis' debut in January 1982, the only jazz music recorded was the sound of Grover Washington Jr and Chuck Mangione arguing over who gets to use the cash register and a single field recording of wolves howling in a barren wasteland. Other than that... Nothing. Thinking it through though, I see a hole in the argument. Can you really call Red Clay a jazz record when it was recorded using electricity (lightbulbs etc.)? Probably best to adjust the thesis and move the starting date backwards. Edited March 8, 2022 by Rabshakeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Yeah, that thesis needs adjusting. Indeed it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhatta Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) My very narrow-minded definition of "Neo-bop" or "Young Lions" is. * Recorded during the 80s - 90s * By young blacks of the time (born in the 1960s or 70s, got high musical education, generation who "learned" jazz) * Conservative but highly sophisticated playing (based on hard bop, somewhat "cold", employs very complex rhythm) * Supposed to "purify" jazz (moving away from fusion) And I still listen to: * Marsalis Standard Time Vol. 1 (1987): I think it's a typical "neo bop". Wynton Marsalis was born in 1961. * African Exchange Student (1990): Kenny Garrett was born in 1960. * Children Of The Light (1996) : I think it's a good example of Young Lion's "interpretation" of old tunes. Rodney Whitaker was born in 1968. * V (1988): Ralph Peterson was born in 1962. There are many Young Lion stuff on Blue Note/Somethin' Else at that time. Edited March 8, 2022 by mhatta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 It seems that a number pianists, who were involved in one way or another with the Young Lions, are players I listen to now quite a lot. Thinking of Donald Brown, James Williams, Mulgrew Miller, Benny Green, Cyrus Chestnut and Eric Reed. I don't listen to (with a very few rare exceptions) to Wynton or Bradford Marsalis, Joshua Redman or Donald Harrison. I do listen to Brian Lynch, and (some recordings by) Roy Hargrove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 13 minutes ago, mhatta said: My very narrow-minded definition of "Neo-bop" or "Young Lions" is. * Recorded during the 80s - 90s * By young blacks of the time (born in the 1960s or 70s, got high musical education, generation who "learned" jazz) * Conservative but highly sophisticated playing (based on hard bop, somewhat "cold", employs very complex rhythm) * Supposed to "purify" jazz (moving away from fusion) And I still listen to: * Marsalis Standard Time Vol. 1 (1987): I think it's a typical "neo bop". Wynton Marsalis was born in 1961. * African Exchange Student (1990): Kenny Garrett was born in 1960. * Children Of The Light (1996) : I think it's a good example of Young Lion's "interpretation" of old tunes. Rodney Whitaker was born in 1968. * V (1988): Ralph Peterson was born in 1962. There are many Young Lion stuff on Blue Note/Somethin' Else at that time. Ralph Peterson I actually really like. The Fo'ter records are really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Ralph Peterson's albums are the only ones I still listen to from this gang. Fo'tet especially Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HutchFan Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said: Universally acknowledged fact: Between the release of Red Clay by Freddie Hubbard in May 1970 and Wynton Marsalis' debut in January 1982, the only jazz music recorded was the sound of Grover Washington Jr and Chuck Mangione arguing over who gets to use the cash register and a single field recording of wolves howling in a barren wasteland. Other than that... Nothing. Thinking it through though, I see a hole in the argument. Can you really call Red Clay a jazz record when it was recorded using electricity (lightbulbs etc.)? Probably best to adjust the thesis and move the starting date backwards. LOL !!! 1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said: Ralph Peterson I actually really like. The Fo'ter records are really good. Yessir. Those are rock-solid records. ... And Peterson's album Triangular too. Not with the Fo'tet -- but excellent. For whatever reason, I don't associate him with the whole "Young Lions" thing. ... Maybe because I like his music! Edited March 8, 2022 by HutchFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 This has got me listening to Peterson's final album 'Raise Up Off Me', sounding very good https://ralphpetersononyxmusiclabel.bandcamp.com/album/raise-up-off-me He was one hell of a drummer. I was lucky enough to see him once with David Murray. 9 minutes ago, HutchFan said: LOL !!! Yessir. Those are rock-solid records. ... And Peterson's album Triangular too. Not with the Fo'tet -- but excellent. For whatever reason, I don't associate him with the whole "Young Lions" thing. I'm not sure I do either, always seemed a bit older but not sure if he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HutchFan Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, mjazzg said: This has got me listening to Peterson's final album 'Raise Up Off Me', sounding very good https://ralphpetersononyxmusiclabel.bandcamp.com/album/raise-up-off-me He was one hell of a drummer. I was lucky enough to see him once with David Murray. Lucky you! Those four (?) records he made with Murray for DIW -- with Dave Burrell -- are primo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Modal Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 So Kenny Garrett and Brian Lynch are considered young lions huh? I didn’t know that. I enjoy their albums, esp their newest output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted March 14, 2022 Report Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) I think I have a Christopher Holliday album that someone gave me for birthday once. Very fine, but so much similar to Jackie McLean, but really fast company I think with Wallace Rooney and some hot young rhythm section. Sometimes I played it while driving....., sure they all can play. I saw a helluva female alto player with a Diz memorial band formed by Diz´s bassist John Lee. She was top. I knew her name but would have to google to find her....., too bad they didn´t make a record, it was with Diz´guitar player Ed Cherry, the drummer I think was Candy Finch, the trumpeter I don´t remember his name but he was not as good as the lady on alto was....... And yeah : Cindy Blackman, this was some of the best drums I ever heard. I think if it´s about "young lions" as they were called I paid most attention to the drummers, Jeff Tane Watts with the Marsalis Brothers... Edited March 14, 2022 by Gheorghe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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