First rock records with extended improvisation

[Brad]

4 hours ago, mjzee said:

I don’t know if it was the first but it was the first for me and blew my mind when I heard it the first time. Still love hearing it. 

[medjuck]

Neil Young and Crazy Horse? 

[felser]

27 minutes ago, medjuck said:

Neil Young and Crazy Horse? 

'Everybody Knows This is Nowhere" from 1969.  "Cowgirl in the Sand" and "Down By The River" !  Great stuff.

3 hours ago, Joe said:

It's a polarizing performance for sure. I appreciate the proto-punk-ness of it all myself, but I also can't deny the bad vibes emanating from these grooves.

I'm surprised MacLean stuck around as long as he did. But we got FOREVER CHANGES out of it, so... 

Yeah, 'Forever Changes' is a desert island disc for me!

[Rabshakeh]

9 hours ago, jlhoots said:

Insect Trust - Robert Palmer

I have googled this. It looks intriguing. The links to HMR and the presence of Elvin Jones.

8 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I know East West is considered important, and I love Bloomfield, but I think he really didn't have a clue as to how to do that kind of thing, and it showed.  

Interesting! The discussion mentioned in the first post was partly spurred by your description (which I read as positive) of Bloomfield in God Don't Like It. I hadn't listened to it before that, and checked it out as a result (for whatever reason, it seems to be less famous in the UK than the States).

[AllenLowe]

9 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I have googled this. It looks intriguing. The links to HMR and the presence of Elvin Jones.

Interesting! The discussion mentioned in the first post was partly spurred by your description (which I read as positive) of Bloomfield in God Don't Like It. I hadn't listened to it before that, and checked it out as a result (for whatever reason, it seems to be less famous in the UK than the States).

I think Bloomfield was a genius and love his playing. He just did not, like most rockers, have enough of a musical understanding of true modal playing. Same thing with Jerry Garcia, who I also admired; he thought playing scales was enough to be playing "jazz."

Edited December 8, 2022 by AllenLowe

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Not first nor likely even long enough for "extended", but my favorite rock improvisational jam is the Stones' "Can You Hear Me Knocking".

[Rabshakeh]

26 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

I think Bloomfield was a genius and love his playing. He just did not, like most rockers, have enough of a musical understanding of true modal playing. Same thing with Jerry Garcia, who I also admired; he thought playing scales was enough to be playing "jazz."

For sure. 

I think that I was looking more for the perception anyway. I guess that the kids were wow-ed by this stuff, and thought it was the bee's, even if it was not really much more than scales, deployed effectively. At some point, I assume that led to a worldview where "jazz" came to mean something other than fusty parent music and instead was a mark of quality.

[clifford_thornton]

20 hours ago, Joe said:

DA CAPO by Love, released in 1966, features the first side-long composition/performance by a rock band. "Revelation." This track features a sax solo by one Tjay Cantrelli, aka John Barberis.

 

yeah, it's messy but fun. I like Love. From a few years later, the 2LP set Out Here on Blue Thumb is a fave. The 12 minute "Doggone," mostly a feature for drummer George Suranovich, is cool.

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by clifford_thornton

[felser]

36 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

yeah, it's messy but fun. I like Love. From a few years later, the 2LP set Out Here on Blue Thumb is a fave. The 12 minute "Doggone," mostly a feature for drummer George Suranovich, is cool.

 

I like the extended "Love Is More Than Words or Better Late Than Never" off that same double album.  Good guitar players in that iteration of the group.  I listen to Love a lot, they are (he is?) a favorite.

 

[clifford_thornton]

True about Love is More That Words -- jammer!

Arthur Lee is pretty interesting.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

For sure. 

I think that I was looking more for the perception anyway. I guess that the kids were wow-ed by this stuff, and thought it was the bee's, even if it was not really much more than scales, deployed effectively. At some point, I assume that led to a worldview where "jazz" came to mean something other than fusty parent music and instead was a mark of quality.

Don't underestimate the impact of the real things, like Miles, Coltrane, Chico/Gabor Szabo, a few others. That stuff was "crossing over", and for that you can thank not only public mentions of their names by the rock players, but the late/great "underground"/"free form" FM radio, where a LOT of things got played.

[danasgoodstuff]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Don't underestimate the impact of the real things, like Miles, Coltrane, Chico/Gabor Szabo, a few others. That stuff was "crossing over", and for that you can thank not only public mentions of their names by the rock players, but the late/great "underground"/"free form" FM radio, where a LOT of things got played.

True, if you were lucky enough to hear that in its brief moment of glory.  But it did have a ripple effect.

[felser]

6 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said:

True, if you were lucky enough to hear that in its brief moment of glory.  But it did have a ripple effect.

WEBN in Cincinnati for a few years (1968-1970) for me.  From Wikipedia:

When it initially went on the air on August 31, 1967, it was owned by Frank Wood Sr., a Cincinnati attorney. WEBN broadcast classical music daytimes and an all-night jazz program. The night programming was managed by a bank of 10½-inch Scully reel to reel tape machines in an early instance of station automation. However, in the late evening hours of Saturdays and Sundays it also broadcast a program hosted by Frank's son and EBN's 1st-ever DJ Frank Wood Jr. or known by his on-air name as Dr. Michael Bo Xanadu, that show was called "The WEBN's Jelly Pudding Show". The show featured many album cuts by both popular and somewhat obscure artists, other than the recognized hit songs or radio edits, tagged "rock, jazz, folk and ragas." The program and its music proved to be so popular that the station eventually made this album oriented rock show the bulk of its programming, much to the chagrin of Frank Sr. himself.

[unitstructures]

[felser]

1 hour ago, unitstructures said:

Not too sure it's "rock", but it's great music, and was certainly revolutionary at the time.

[Teasing the Korean]

The Animals' live version of "Bo Diddley," from December 1963, runs nearly 8 minutes.  It was not released until 1970 as part of the live In the Beginning album on the Wand label, but still, it should be considered in the discussion. This Animals album to me is much more interesting than Five Live Yardbirds.  I wonder how it would have been received had it been released at the time.  

[felser]

19 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

The Animals' live version of "Bo Diddley," from December 1963, runs nearly 8 minutes.  It was not released until 1970 as part of the live In the Beginning album on the Wand label, but still, it should be considered in the discussion. This Animals album to me is much more interesting than Five Live Yardbirds.  I wonder how it would have been received had it been released at the time.  

I'm another who has never been knocked out by 'Five Live Yardbirds'.   I'll take the Jeff Beck version of the group, thanks.

[Steve Reynolds]

Viola Lee Blues 10:01

from The Grateful Dead released March 1967. By later in the year and in early 1968, Viola Lee would increase to 16 and then up to 22-23 minutes in length. Dark Star started out as a somewhat fast modal piece of ~6-7 minutes live in early 1968. By 1969 it was normally 18 to up to 30 minutes long. Most versions in 1972-73 were 25 to 44 minutes long. Most vastly different from one another as their skill & creativity flourished. 

In early 1967 they were just starting to learn how to play electric and were very influenced by Coltrane, Miles etc. They would see Cream live a number of times that Summer at the Fillmore West which had an influence on what they were doing. Jerry was more impressed with Cream and later with Miles’ electric groups in 69-70 than any other electric amplified live bands. 
 

my friend started this blog

everydarkstar.blogspot.com

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Steve Reynolds

[Rabshakeh]

36 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Viola Lee Blues 10:01

from The Grateful Dead released March 1967. By later in the year and in early 1968, Viola Lee would increase to 16 and then up to 22-23 minutes in length. Dark Star started out as a somewhat fast modal piece of ~6-7 minutes live in early 1968. By 1969 it was normally 18 to up to 30 minutes long. Most versions in 1972-73 were 25 to 44 minutes long. Most vastly different from one another as their skill & creativity flourished. 

In early 1967 they were just starting to learn how to play electric and were very influenced by Coltrane, Miles etc. They would see Cream live a number of times that Summer at the Fillmore West which had an influence on what they were doing. Jerry was more impressed with Cream and later with Miles’ electric groups in 69-70 than any other electric amplified live bands. 
 

my friend started this blog

everydarkstar.blogspot.com

 

I hadn't realised that The Grateful Dead were so directly influenced by Cream.

[danasgoodstuff]

I adore 5 Live Yardbirds, but they did tend to treat all the tunes the same way, giving them all their patented Rave Up treatment, which makes for a fairly limited approach to extended improv.  I do love the energy and excitement of it, and it was influential as you can hear knockoffs of that approach for decades after.  But it is kind of a deadend.

[Teasing the Korean]

6 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

I adore 5 Live Yardbirds, but they did tend to treat all the tunes the same way, giving them all their patented Rave Up treatment, which makes for a fairly limited approach to extended improv.  I do love the energy and excitement of it, and it was influential as you can hear knockoffs of that approach for decades after.  But it is kind of a deadend.

I love "Smokestack Lightning," but I could live without the rest of it.  That Animals album from Dec. 1963, that runs 32 minutes, could have been a great live rock album in 1964, much better than Five Live IMO.

[Steve Reynolds]

7 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I hadn't realised that The Grateful Dead were so directly influenced by Cream.

Maybe not but they were listening. Maybe more importantly Phil took the guys to see the Coltrane Quartet in 1965 in San Francisco. 

[mjzee]

7 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I hadn't realised that The Grateful Dead were so directly influenced by Cream.

I remember reading somewhere that Hart and Garcia saw Cream in concert in SF, and Hart was amazed at how big Cream were, and Garcia said something to the effect that the Dead will be that big someday.

[danasgoodstuff]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I love "Smokestack Lightning," but I could live without the rest of it.  That Animals album from Dec. 1963, that runs 32 minutes, could have been a great live rock album in 1964, much better than Five Live IMO.

Thanks for the recommendation.

[Steve Reynolds]

7 hours ago, mjzee said:

I remember reading somewhere that Hart and Garcia saw Cream in concert in SF, and Hart was amazed at how big Cream were, and Garcia said something to the effect that the Dead will be that big someday.

Garcia said something like this “right now this is the greatest group on the planet”

Jerry never had any ideas about the Dead being “big” in that sense. Plus “big” in 1967  & early 1968 wasn’t what “big” would be in the early 70’s when bands started filling large arenas and then stadiums.