Modern / Avant - Age of Attendees

[Rabshakeh]

I have been to a few gigs recently at dedicated "avant" music spaces in London and I have been struck by how old the crowd was.

It was always an older crowd, but the most recent Nicole Mitchell I attended at Dalston's Cafe OTO (fantastic gig) did not look like it had anyone other than me under 55 in the audience, and most people were visibly in their 70s.

Not a bad thing (I had a lovely chat with a guy about the 50s Soho jazz scene's navigating the trad / bop transition) but it is surprising, particularly when jazz, including avant garde jazz, is going through a spate of popularity among younger people. It is also a bit of a concern for the music, going ahead. 

I wondered whether others, particularly those in places like NY which have that sort of dedicated avant music space, feel the same way.

[Niko]

when I was a much younger jazz fan, say as an 18 year old in 1999, I was always uncomfortable at jazz concerts with everyone being so much older, even the occasional university student being a decade older and the majority being elderly gentleman with beards... I'd say it was like that at most jazz venues, not just avantgarde (in my case back then usually the Loft in Cologne), the major exception being festivals, especially Moers (which always drew thousands of younger people who were just hanging out, smoking and living in their tents without  bothering too much about the music...). Now that I am myself a middle-aged gentleman with a slowly whitening beard, I feel like I fit in much better... but yes, those audiences tend to be old... The only real exceptions I see now is when it's artists the jazz students from the nearby convervatories want to see (like Ambrose Akinmusire or Julian Lage)...

[BillF]

Jazz certainly has a very elderly audience. Many (like myself) will be survivors of the jazz boom of the late 50s and early 60s (the Blue Note era) when they will have been in their late teens or early twenties. My late friend John Shelton (JohnS of this forum) who ran the Portsmouth Jazz Society used to say that as aficionados passed on or grew too infirm to attend gigs they were never replaced by anyone younger and so the numbers of listeners was in steady decline. Some venues have younger audiences, though, but they are still not as young as their twenties, the few exceptions being those who are studying, or are the products of studying, jazz courses. I'm aware, though, that this picture which is true for this part of the world is not universal. Whenever I look on YouTube at what was on a few hours earlier at Smalls Jazz Club in New York City, I'm struck - and heartened - by the youthfulness of the audience in which twentysomethings are the norm and old guys like me are never seen -  except sometimes on the stand.

[sidewinder]

For as long as I can remember, it was always an older demographic who were into straight-ahead  Classic jazz, either mainstream, modern or avant-garde. My impression is that the ‘lighter’ MOR-y stuff tends to have a strong following, by and large, amongst a younger demographic. Listening to ‘J to Z’ on the radio this afternoon, virtually nothing played interested me personally but there must be a significant following for such stuff out there. 

Bill - Maybe Smalls operates like Ronnie’s used to do by seating young whippersnappers visible at the front. Old non-photogenic gits get placed at the back well away from cameras. 😀

Edited December 17, 2022 by sidewinder

[mjazzg]

I don't go to Oto as much as I used to but do remember pre-pandemic how encouraged I was by the number of 30-somethings there were attending. It made me feel old but in a good way as I remembered how great it was to discover new music at that age myself.

I do wonder whether Ms Mitchell is not Avant enough, or even not known enough, for a lot of the Oto crowd. I saw her there 4/5 years ago and no more than 20 turned up.

Hope they'll be a good mix for Brotzmann in February 

The Vortex is interesting in the way it pulls in a younger crowd with its programme on younger, local players. Sometimes it seems it's all band mates in the audience 

[Д.Д.]

For full geriatric experience go to a classical music concert. I was at one a week ago and there were barely any non-grey (or alternatively, non-bold) heads in the hall, which was nearly at full-capacity. This created a somewhat morbid contrast with the orchestra (Wiener Symphoniker) which was full of young players.     

4 hours ago, mjazzg said:

I do wonder whether Ms Mitchell is not Avant enough, or even not known enough, for a lot of the Oto crowd. I saw her there 4/5 years ago and no more than 20 turned up.

Well, I saw Tomeka Reid in duo with Jessica Pavone a few weeks ago, and there were probably 25 people in the audience (yes, mostly old dudes). Reid is supposed to be fairly well-known, right?    

Edited December 17, 2022 by Д.Д.

[Steve Reynolds]

Wide variety here in NYC & Brooklyn 

last summer young crowd for Malaby, Monder & Rainey

Thursday night older crowd for Liebman, Rudolph & Sorey

today older crowd for Transatlantic Trance Map

last week in between for William Winant & Catalytic Festival / even more avant-garde than today. Many regulars / aged 50’s through 70’s. 

[mjazzg]

8 hours ago, Steve Reynolds said:

 

today older crowd for Transatlantic Trance Map

How was this Steve? Sounded potentially fascinating. UK half wasn't in London sadly

 I'm thinking it would not have been similar to his Electro-Acoustic Ensemble 

[Steve Reynolds]

6 hours ago, mjazzg said:

How was this Steve? Sounded potentially fascinating. UK half wasn't in London sadly

 I'm thinking it would not have been similar to his Electro-Acoustic Ensemble 

It was OK. Audio was great. Video from England was dicey at best. Highlights were Peter Evans, Alex Ward and the trombonist & cellist from your country. Evan played well but his soprano saxophone is best to be heard in the room he’s playing in, IMO.

I had a hard time trying NOT to concern myself with who was doing what as far as the electronics. I’m not a huge fan of Ikue Mori and I didn’t particularly like whether Sam Pluta was doing. Mat Maneri had a hard time involving his playing into the ensemble. By far the most impressive musician in Brooklyn was Sylvie. Not a big fan of whatever Taborn was doing and Rothenberg leaves me a bit cold as great a technician that he is. 

compared to the improv shows from last week, a big eh.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Steve Reynolds

[mjazzg]

2 hours ago, Steve Reynolds said:

It was OK. Audio was great. Video from England was dicey at best. Highlights were Peter Evans, Alex Ward and the trombonist & cellist from your country. Evan played well but his soprano saxophone is best to be heard in the room he’s playing in, IMO.

I had a hard time trying NOT to concern myself with who was doing what as far as the electronics. I’m not a huge fan of Ikue Mori and I didn’t particularly like whether Sam Pluta was doing. Mat Maneri had a hard time involving his playing into the ensemble. By far the most impressive musician in Brooklyn was Sylvie. Not a big fan of whatever Taborn was doing and Rothenberg leaves me a bit cold as great a technician that he is. 

compared to the improv shows from last week, a big eh.

Interesting observations, thanks. Seems like it may have fallen victim to its ambition

[Hoppy T. Frog]

I was at a concert last Sunday of Troubadour music from the 1100s and I think much of the crowd at the concert was alive then.