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Posts posted by hgweber

  1. 3 hours ago, david weiss said:

    I don't agree.

    It is definitely flat but not by this much. On my software, if 1 is a full semitone, I had the raise the pitch about .3 to bring it into tune. 

    Still unfortunate but probably not detectable to anyone who is not playing along with an instrument....

    Yes, very wet but it's on the original recording. Can't undo wet.

    i did not use software but noticed that sonnymoon was almost in A. but i just did run some software after reading your post. according to my software sonny's "Bb" is at 223,5 hz, a regular Bb should be 233hz. A is 220 as you know, so it is almost a semi-tone

  2. On 10.10.2020 at 11:24 PM, sgcim said:

    It's hard to follow an artist all the way to the end. Towards the end, they usually go somewhere I don't like, lose what they used to have, or over- record and I know all their licks.

    If they die young, or quit after hitting some type of wall, it's easier to have most of what they did. One example of that is:

    Eddie Costa- dead at 31, but leaving behind an extensive discography as a studio musician. I think I have just about every jazz session he ever played on. He was just starting to add McCoy's bag to his playing when he died.  Others that I have made a concerted effort to have a full discography of are:

    Tal Farlow- Every note he played up to 1960, and then he lost it.

    Joe Puma- I think I have most of it.

    Dick Garcia- All I lack are private tapes of him jamming with his family on Sundays that his nephew has, but aren't for sale...

    Ed Bickert- Just about all of his leader and sideman dates.

    Jimmy Raney- I even have stuff never released.

    Johnny Smith- all of it

    Lenny Breau- all of it.

    yeah. i think i have most of raney's recorded output including many bootlegs. same for doug. i also have almost everything roland prince ever recorded, again including many bootlegs. i got most of grant green's recordings including the unissued KD and quebec, complete session reels from his BN sessions, etc. i got most of wes montgomery (anyone got the unissued portions of ronnie scotts?) and probably one of the largest pat martino collections out there, including the unreleased vanguard album and tons of live recordings from the 60s until 2018.

  3. 2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    I think its fair to say that record producers/label owners like Lion and Wolf promise their artists that they will 'put their best foot forward'. There are plenty of scummy characters of the time who recorded and issued haphazardly but they probably weren't the ones who paid for rehearsal time.

    MC is following in Alfred's footsteps and I think its fitting and proper. There is no right to hear everything from an artist and no one should look at tape vaults like an all-you-can-eat buffet. 

    Everybody who has heard these issues knows that there are faults with every one of them.  None of them live up to an average issued session (and if you need extensive editing to piece together an especially good take, that right there is a good indication that it wasn't happening.)

    -running blue note records in 1959 is not the same as curating the historic cataloge in 2019. if a jazz messenger session didn't work out in 1959, no problem, just schedule another session. we do not have that luxury. and why would it be worth a sigh if someone wants to listen beyond the official? i thought that was normal, lol.

    -of course there is no "right" to hear everything, who claimed that? is there some sort of "moral" obligation not to let historically important works of art rot in a basement until they burn one day? maybe? in other art forms it is rather common to donate pieces of art to a museum. is it so laughable that a 1959 jazz messenger recording might be dotated to some institute? or BN records opening their own historic website, podcast, youtube channel or whatever? 

  4. 7 minutes ago, bresna said:

    Grant might be on fire but the rest of the band really isn't playing that great. As much as I like Ike Quebec, this is not a good date for him.

    grant isn't good on standards either. on the whole, the trio session is much worse than the quebec imo. so i dont really buy the aesthetic angle there. and does it have to be good to be released? is there no historic value to the recordings of the best in their field? i understand if it*s not released because of money. but surely there are no reputations at stake?

  5. On 10.10.2004 at 6:13 PM, bresna said:

    I swear sometimes MC listens to these things once, forms an opinion, and simply doesn't go back again. I also think he's overstating the problems with this date. I do believe there wouldn't be a way to put this out by simply "choosing takes" as nearly every take has a little problem, but with some judicious editing, even I could make this a decent Jazz Messenger's CD. I just don't have the editing software or, at this time in my life, patience to do this.


    BTW, MC has downplayed this date for as long as I've been talking to him... maybe 15 years by now... and when I got this, I was rather shocked at how it sounded. Not great, but not a bunch of high schoolers!


    I still think Morgan was the star of the date.


    FWIW, MC has said similar things about other dates and after re-visiting the date later, changed his mind a released some of them. Grant Green's 1st date certainly fits this description. He gave that a "thumbs-down" for many years but gave it a fresh spin and found it acceptable. He does change his mind. It's one of the things about him that I like. We may see this date someday.


    Hey, if someone has this session and is handy with editing tools, edit the session down to just the 5 tunes and send me the finished product. I'll get it to MC "blind" and see how he reacts. He could be swayed.




    does this kind of stuff happen in classical music as well? are there people sitting on unpublished mozart pieces claiming they are not good enough for release?

    btw i am convinced that the grant green sessions (the one with kelly an the trio standards date) were only released to cash in on the grant green "revival" a few years back. both are not very good, to put it mildly. grant seems starstruck on the kelly date and totally uninspired on the standards date.

    otoh, he is totally on fire on the unreleased date with quebec...

  6. 10 hours ago, JSngry said:

    I don't have perfect pitch but do have semi-good reflexes, which is jut to say that it sounds to me like he starts out playing a half-step above the key, resolves and the immediately moves to the trione ("flatted fifth") chord which then resolves to the expected IV chord.

    So if you're in Bb, it would be

    B  Bb| E   | Eb....

    //  //   | //// |//// etc

    Not sure that's looking right on screen, and not 100% that's exactly what's happening, but again, that's what it sounds like to me just by ear.

    You're right to hear it as "out", especially for its time (remember, though, that a lot of stuff happened during the Recording Ban that made bebop sound even more radical than it already was to consumer ears), but it's really a rather uniquely phrased (and yes to the Monk influence!) use of what were then becoming popular applications of then-"modern" harmonic ideas:

    • Playing a half step above the home key. This works theoretically, because if you're in, say Bb, the V chord is going to be F, and you can always replace one dominant with its equivalent a tritone away (to explain this further, we'd have to look at common tones and resolution expectations...yuck!), but that's a fancy way of saying that if you're going to play a figure from an F7 over a Bb chord, no biggie, because it has the ear expecting it to resolve anyway. So you can just as well play a figure from a B7 over a Bb chord, and although it might be a little more jarring to the expectations, it's ok, because there's still the implicit resolution expectation in place.
    • The use of the tritone substitution going into the IV chord. The same principles as above apply here, jsut with slightly different functionality. If you're in Bb, your IV chord is going to be Eb. At the same time, the V of the IV chord (Bb) is the same as the tonic, Bb. So to do a tritone sub of that Bb give you an E, which resolves quite naturally to the Eb.

    And easier way to put it is that the closest gravity points in ANY chord are those a half-step away. Conventional diatonic harmony likes to run it as the circle of fifths, but imo, that's a bit of taming of the beast, so to speak, Half-tones away are the strongest pull,

    Also, coincidentally both of these maths are used, albeit for a whole different impact, in a BIG lot of straight-up blues environments. Those cats knew how to cut to the chase,

    Sorry if that's too inside baseball.

    yeah, i thought along similar lines. i think he maybe was going for the B7 E7/ A7 D7/G7 C7/ F7 Bb7/etc. cliche. but it sounds so unlike all the standard licks and cycle runs that were played over that progression at that time by byas et al.

    btw to me the cycle of fifths (i actually prefer to see it counter-clockwise as the cycle of fourths, since chords *fall* a fifth to their resolution) and the chromatic scale are just two sides of the same coin. 

  7. 10 hours ago, sgcim said:

    Hi Holger! One reason it sounds weird is because he's not playing off the blues form like all the other solos on the tune. It's some type of weird little section of turnarounds they added for the piano. He does use some Monkish descending runs, but it sounds weird because he keeps playing the flat two note (the third of the VI7 chord in the turnaround) when we expect to hear some type of blues progression.

    hey steve. it's just a blues in Bb during the opening piano solo

  8. 1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

    The piano solo reminds me of some early Argonne Thornton/Sadik Hakim solos with its chromatic runs. That and some Monkish intervals. But was Monk's style known on the scene by the time these tracks were recorded?

    yes. i think paparelli was quite familiar with monk's style. the first chorus has some really sloppy monk runs. the first two bars of his second chorus, i have no idea what he's doing. sounds pretty far out.


  9. i met pony in the late 80s when he was visiting germany for the last time and stayed with a good friend of mine. we drove him to several concerts in the mannheim area where he put up a little stand to sell his book. i still have the copy he gave me, with "to bill cosby" whitened out and my name over it, lol. i remember going backstage with him in mannheim to greet art blakey. for some reason woody shaw was also there, suddenly standing in front of me, holding out his hand and introducing himself.

    i remember that he didn't talk much and that he seemed not to be in good shape. he did like to smoke the green. i think he died a few months later. i have a tape somewhere with a gig he did on an earlier visit, no sax, just singing, with my buddy on piano and a local rhythm section, iirc. i could find it if it's of any interest.


    i'd love to see the photos from frankfurt. any idea who was playing with pony?


    and +1 to the recordings with rene thomas. 

  10. 1. old devil moon. bobby hutcherson, late period?

    3. fantastic bass player, could it be george tucker? is yusef lateef involved?

    13. just friends. first vibraphone solo sounds like terry gibbs. i enjoyed his combo records on jasmine.

    15. jim halls debut as a leader with carl perkins and red mitchell. seven come eleven, associated with charlie christian, whose influence is obvious here.


  11. i'm not sure how much money you can actually grab from releasing Grant Green material ;)

    the paris session could've been left alone, since there is video already. but i'm happy for everything new that we get. i mean, the holy barbarian session is probably not of great artistic value but gives a great snapshot of grant's development. surely there is historic value in releasing unissued material?

    is it a bit odd how cuscuna likes this release so much when he is appearantly still sitting on better grant green material? and is it true that he writes in his liner notes that cannonball brought grant to NYC? wasn't that lou donaldson?