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Peter A
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Posts posted by Peter A
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European pressings or US press FOR european market ? They also bear an "US" pat. The weight difference is stunning, anyway. The "jazz lab" (12-229) is one of the heaviest record i've ever seen !
Yes, but why would Riverside have taken the trouble to press different, thinner LP's for the European market? Also: safety-lip pressings are probably pressed on newer equipment than the "flat edge" ones. But the covers for these later pressings are the same as the "originals".
As for the sound: I have safetly-lip versions of Jazz Lab and Monk's Brilliant Corners which do not sound incredible.
On the other hand my "flat edge" white label pressings of New Jazz Conceptions (12-223) and Kenny Drew Trio (12-224) sound amazing!
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But in fact, many other record from other labels (Prestige, Riverside) should be described as flat edge or not, when necessary. For example, i have two copies of Tony Fruscella on Atlantic : one has a flat edge, the other has not. So there are obviously two pressings of this record. Anyway, its never mentionned on Ebay auctions, and prices are always the same for a NM record, although there are two editions and two covers, also (one framed, the other not). Every details is described on Blue Note, but the same details are often ignored on other labels...
That's why one should always ask questions to the seller. It's not possible to determine a first pressing only by looking at the label (e.g. white Riverside label or Prestige label with NY address), but also to look at the disc characteristics. Some big selling dics (e.g. Miles Davis) have been repressed w/the Prestige NY label, but only the first pressing (A stampers) has no safety lip. A lot of the early Riverside LP's (w/white label) you see in Europe have a safety lip as well and GB patent nrs stamped into the vinyl. These are IMO Europeas pressings - the American pressings are a lot heavier and have no safetly lip (and do sound better).
Life is not always easy for jazz record collectors!
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Hello,
I'm new to this forum and would to share someinpressions about the topic.
Everybody here talks about Blue Note madness, how high are now NM original press especially Lex, NY 23, and W63. And fifty more albums that are very expensive ( Colossus, Overseas, Jaro, Ad Lib Transition etc...). I've been collecting for ten years, an believe it or not, i eventually got tired of Blue Note ! I have many BN originals, including some of the most sought after (i don't say : Rare), i spent a lot of money buying them, and i realized that, altghough Blue Note albums are wonderful there are many non-BN album that are as hip, as groovy, as funky, as interesting as Blue Note ! Here are some of my favourite :
Tony Fruscella ! Don Sleet (this one is worth 50 $ ! imagine with a BN number : 500 or +), Tommy Turrentine on Time ! Warne Marsh ! Many Epics (Chartlie Rouse, Dave Bailey), Rocky Boyd, Rene Thomas (Guitar Groove : worth 50 $ ! one of the greatest guitar albums ! ) Rolf Kuhn (Streamline : worth 120 $) Sonny Criss on Imperial etc, many Prestige, Riverside, Savoy
I think that it is still possible to build an interesting collection (of course, far from the 75000 records fantasm ! ), with rare and desirable records. in fact, only Blue Note prices are growing senselessly. For many records, prices are stable. And -, you can still find them for a bargain. I paid 160 $ for a NM copy of Warm Woods on Ebay, 275 for Rocky Boyd etc... Most of the time, 1000+ prices are commanded by 1) the reputation of the dealer, 2) the "i-want-this-record- no matter-what price" state of mind, and the competition between two bidders. Remember the Monk RLP 242 that sold 3000 $ at Atomic ! if i try to sell my copy, it will probably reach 250. Period.
Here's one i've never seen (in fact : one time on Anthony Pearson auction ) : Will Davis Trio "have mood, will call", on Sue LP 1011. I'd really like to catch this one.
Thanks for comments !
Michel
Welcome to the Organissimo Forum!
I agree with you that, apart from original Blue Note LP's, many nice originals can be found.
On the other hand, some of the records you mention have aren't really cheapo's either.
For instance the Atlantic of Tony Fruscella has always been rare (and expensive). The same counts for the Sonny Criss LP's on Imperial. The Epic's, the Rocky Boyd LP and Dave Bailey LP on Jazzline have indeed become very expensive lately. Agree with the LP's of Sleet and Thomas on Jazzland; they are great!
Regards,
Peter
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I compared three versions: the K2, the SACD en the original vinyl (purple New Jazz label).
The K2 and the SACD sound a bit similar, perhaps the bass on the SACD is slightly more defined (although I played the SACD on a "normal" CD player).
IMO the vinyl version is the winner of the three. On the LP the solo instruments (tenor; guitar) sound louder than the rest of the band (as it should), while on the CD's the drums (cymbals!) and bass are also quite prominent. To my ears the vinyl version has a more natural sound.
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That Lonnie Smith one - 4371 - is odd, because there aren't any unissued Smiths on BN. Perhaps it was supposed to be for the Club Mozambique session.
MG
Perhaps this one?
Lonnie Smith Quintet
Dave Hubbard (ts) Ronnie Cuber (bars) Lonnie Smith (org) Larry McGee (g) Marion Booker (d)
Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, December 19, 1969
5713 Twenty-Five Miles Blue Note rejected
5714 Seven Steps to Heaven -
5715 Psychedelic Pi -
5716 Original Latin Blues
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Maybe that's why BN gave a different title for the RVG. "That can't be true, there was a Prestige session
over at Rudy's on the same day. I randomly suggest going with an April 21, 1967 date instead!".
April 21, 1967:
McCoy Tyner Quartet
Joe Henderson (ts) McCoy Tyner (p) Ron Carter (b) Elvin Jones (d)
Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, April 21, 1967
1873 tk.1 Contemplation Blue Note BLP 4264
1874 tk.6 Passion Dance -
1875 tk.7 Blues on the Corner -
1876 tk.12 Four by Five -
1877 tk.18 Search for Peace -
* McCoy Tyner - The Real McCoy (Blue Note BLP 4264)
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[it was a busy day for Kenny because he had a session the same day in Englewood Cliffs with Jack McDuff. It would make sense though because Ray Barretto is on both sessions.
That's funny indeed! And a busy day for Rudy too. I wonder which session was first...
Brother Jack McDuff Sextet
Harold Vick (ts) Eric Dixon (ts, fl) Brother Jack McDuff (org) Kenny Burrell (g) Joe Dukes (d) Ray Barretto (cga)
Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, January 8, 1963
3716 Somethin' Slick! Prestige 45-246, PRLP 7265, PR 7481, PRCD 24131-2
3717 How High the Moon Prestige PRLP 7265, PRCD 24131-2
3718 Shaky Prestige PR 7666, PRCD 24131-2
3719 Love Walked In Prestige PR 7347, PRCD 24131-2
3720 Easy Livin' unissued
3721 It's a Wonderful World Prestige PRLP 7265, PR 7596, PRCD 24131-2
3722 Smut Prestige PRLP 7265, PRCD 24131-2
3723 Our Miss Brooks -
* Brother Jack McDuff - Somethin' Slick! (Prestige PRLP 7265)
* Brother Jack McDuff's Greatest Hits (Prestige PR 7481)
* Brother Jack McDuff - Steppin' Out (Prestige PR 7666)
* Kenny Burrell - Crash! (Prestige PR 7347)
* Brother Jack McDuff Plays for Beautiful People (Prestige PR 7596)
* Kenny Burrell/Jack McDuff - Crash! (Prestige PRCD 24131-2)
* Jack McDuff - Somethin' Slick c/w Screamin' (Prestige 45-246)
Kenny Burrell Quintet
Stanley Turrentine (ts -1/5) Kenny Burrell (g) Major Holley Jr. (b -1/8) Bill English (d -1/8) Ray Barretto (cga -1/4,6,7)
Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, January 8, 1963
1. tk.10 Kenny's Sound Blue Note CDP 7 46399-2
2. tk.14 Saturday Night Blues Blue Note BLP 4123
3. tk.16 Wavy Gravy Blue Note 45-1886, BLP 4123
4. tk.23 Chitlins Con Carne Blue Note 45-1885, BLP 4123, BST 89904, BST2 84429
5. tk.28 Mule Blue Note BLP 4123
6. tk.31 Midnight Blue -
7. tk.35 K Twist Blue Note CDP 7 46399-2
8. tk.44 Gee Baby, Ain't I Good to You Blue Note BLP 4123
9. tk.49 Soul Lament -
* Kenny Burrell - Midnight Blue (Blue Note BLP 4123, CDP 7 46399-2)
* Various Artists - Blue Note's Three Decades of Jazz 1959-1969 (Blue Note BST 89904)
= Various Artists - Decades of Jazz, Vol. 3 (Blue Note BN-LA 160-G2)
* Various Artists - The Best of Blue Note, Vol. 1 (Blue Note BST2 84429)
* Kenny Burrell - Wavy Gravy, Pt. 1&2 (Blue Note 45-1886)
* Kenny Burrell - Chitlins Con Carne, Pt. 1&2 (Blue Note 45-1885)
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But Hancock doesn't play on K Twist and that's the only track included on the disc he's talking about.
If he'd said that Hancock only played on the other material from the session, it wouldn't be so confusing.
So there is no piano either on K Twist? Now I understand your confusion.
Perhaps Blumenthal didn't listen to the extra track which was added to the RVG of Midnight Blue and just presumed all the mentioned tracks from the Freedom session were played with the complete lineup (incl. Hancock).
Edit: problem solved - just read Kyo's latest post.
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I just noticed that a recording of K Twist was included as a bonus track on the Midnight Blue RVG. It seems to be from this session. Huh?!
No discographical info for this track is given except for a sentence in Blumenthal's "A New Look At ..." essay which claims it was recorded almost two years later on a session designed to produce material for release on 45. To make things even worse the RVG claims Midnight Blue was recorded on April 21, 1967 - wasn't that sometime in early '63? That would also explain the "almost two years later" comment. It doesn't make much sense that Blumenthal also mentions the addition of Herbie Hancock on piano (which is true for the rest of the Freedom session) when he doesn't play on K Twist. Once again I find myself very confused by a Blue Note release.
The Midnight Blue session was recorded on January 8, 1963 at RvG Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ.
"K Twist" belongs to a session (with 4 other tracks) which was recorded at RVG Studio on October 22, 1964.
It seems Blumenthal's claim is correct.
Peter
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You are out of control here Rooster. Cuscuna found 9 sets of films for unissued dates and all of them came out years ago. There were another bunch of test pressings made and beyond that master tapes edited for issue. Lots of steps involved in preparing a date for issue. The "artwork" is the last. Assigning the catalog number is one of the first things you do - artwork and master tapes can't be completed without the number.
I think Rooster meant to ask: which of all the unissued sessions were meant to be released at the time (and were assigned a catalogue number at the time).
Here is a list:
1592 Sonny Clark Quintets
4052 Tina Brooks - Back To The Tracks
4065 Stanley Turrentine - Coming Your Way
4095 Leo Parker - Rollin' With Leo
4103 Ike Quebec - Congo Lament (later released as Easy Living)
4116 The Jackie McLean Quintet
4122 Stanley Turrentine - Jubilee Shout
4134 Horace Parlan - Happy Frame Of Mind
4135 Freddie Hubbard - Here To Stay
4142 Blue Mitchell - Step Lightly
4143 "Big" John Patton - Blue John
4210 Ornette Coleman - Town Hall Concert I
4211 Ornette Coleman - Town Hall Concert II
4223 Jackie McLean - Jacknife
4233 Andrew Hill - ?
4234 Stanley Turrentine - later released as "In Memory Of" (LT 1037)
4236 Jackie McLean - High Frequency
4241 Hank Mobley - Slice Of The Top
4254 Lou Donaldson - Lush Life
4261 Sam Rivers - Dimensions & Extensions
4316 Frank Foster - ?
4366 "Big" John Patton - Memphis To New York
4367 Hank Mobley - Thinking Of Home
4371 Lonnie Smith - ?
4381 Lee Morgan - same (released later as 4901)
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It even got as far as the cover art for 'Back To The Tracks' appearing on W61st inner sleeves, I believe. I'll check later but I'm sure I've seen this one.If I remember correctly, Back To The Tracks went as far as getting test pressings. I wonder if any of those survived. Bet they would fetch a fortune on ebay!Bertrand.
Pretty sure the cover art for "Blue John" also appeared on an inner sleeve or two - back in the day. (I remember the linernotes mentioning this - although I'm away from my copy at the moment, otherwise I'd check personally.)
If I remember well the covers for Rollin' with Leo and Coming Your Way were also printed on one of these inner sleeves. I will check it when I'm home.
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Wait a sec - are we saying that for each of these albums - shelved for one reason or another - these are original Reid Miles covers that were produced at the time?
I thought Happy Frame of Mind was supposed to be a Booker Ervin release ... and then it got split off from one of the brown LP cover twofers of the 70s. This was the original Reid cover, with Parlan as leader?
Actually a couple of weeks ago a test pressing of "A Happy Frame Of Mind" - no cover, white labels with 'Plastylite' stamp, the name, title and original number (BST-84134) written on it - was sold on eBay. Unfortunately I was on holiday at the time so I was not able to bid on it.
Peter
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has anyone ever seen this lp for reals. what about cd reissue? is this just a discographicial joke or does this lp really exist
It certainly does exist, and...Hank plays on it! I think it is reissued on CD (Japanese) en vinyl (180 grs, don't know which company).
The Cool Voice of Rita Reys
With The Jazz Messengers and the Wessel Ilcken Combo
CD: Philips PHCE-4140 (Japan); LP: Columbia 904 (US)
1955
1. I Cried for You (Arnheim, Freed)
2. You’d Be So Nice to Come Home To (Porter)
3. My One, Only Love (Mellin, Wood)
4. That Old Black Magic (Mercer)
5. Spring Will Be a Little Late This Year (Loesser)
6. Taking a Chance on Love (Duke, Fetter)
7. It’s Alright with Me (Porter)
8. Gone with the Wind (Magdison, Wrubel)
9. My Funny Valentine (Rodgers, Hart)
10. But Not for Me (Gershwins)
11. I Should Care (Cahn, Stordahl, Weston)
12. There Will Never Be Another You (Gordon, Warren)
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Just curious - Is there any established correlation between "deep groove" and sound quality?
Communis opinio under collectors is that, generally speaking, original Blue Note pressings of the end of the 50's - beginning of the 60's do sound better than later pressings. However, this does not neccesarily mean that ALL deep groove pressings sound better than non-dg pressings or that there is no difference between dg pressings.
For instance, I have two deep groove pressings of Something Else by Cannonball Adderley (BN 1595), one pressed on very thick vinyl, with the 47 W address on the label without "Inc" and the trademark and the other with a slightly later label (with Inc and trademark). The first, which I regard as "original" pressing, sounds remarkably better than the second one (very clear sonics and deep bass).
As Alan pointed out, at some point the DG stampers or whatever equipment was used that caused the deep groove, was fased out for first pressings. However, later pressings of non-dg titles may reoccur with dg on one or both sides. In THESE cases the DG pressings obviously do not sound beter than their non-dg predecessors. Pffff, not a very easy subject to explain. I hope Chuck won't become even more disgusted...
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This "deep groove" shit drives me nuts.
It only is the kind of mold/tools for stampers and record presses. Don't have shit to do about the quality but it can date some pressings if you know the plant. I've had plenty of pressings with a "deep groove" on one side and not on the reverse. I want some "serious collector" to 'splain that.
I really don't understand why "it drives you nuts" if someone mentions he/she played a deep groove Blue Note LP. Vinyl collector love discussing these kind of things, why don't you just ignore these discussions if they bother you so much...
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Some additions:
Odell Brown - Raising The Roof (Cadet)
Shirley Scott - One For Me (Strata East)
Mike Carr & Tony Crombie Duo - Hammond Under Pressure (Columbia)
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Well, yesterday I played a couple of the later Atlantic LP's. I am afraid "Money in the Pocket" is not a very good sounding record. Drums sound like cardboard boxes and there is almost no bass, although the horns sound loud and clear. But the music is quite good; two interesting line-ups, one featuring Blue Mitchell and Clifford Jordan, the other Blue Mitchell, Joe Henderson and Pepper Adams. That really can't go wrong! Also two trio tracks and one solo piano track. Sound quality is a bit comparable to the two Duke Pearson records you mentioned from the same period. Acually the Pearson LP's sound a bit better. Inspired by your remark I also played the Chick Corea Vortex album, which actually sounds MUCH better than the Atlantic's!
Regards,
Peter
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Indeed, generally speaking Atlantic albums do not sound great. However, even for the later titles I prefer the mono issues, "fold down" or not. I remember having a stereo issue of "The Grass is Greener"' by Grasella Oliphant (w/Patton and Green) which also had the strong stereo separation you are referring to. Later I found a mono issue which actually does sound quite good. I also have a mono copy of the Zawinul record, if you want more info on the sound quality I can give it a spin.
Peter
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In 2004 a NM/NM copy sold for $3050 on eBay: Jazz collector prices 2004
I'm curious for which price it wil sell in 2008...
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Hopefully an interesting side note: This was in the first Liberty distributed release from BN. Still BN pressings and covers. I remember the salesman visiting the JRM and giving me a promo. Can't be too many "real" BN copies out there.
Just checked my LP and it looks early Liberty with 'Van Gelder' and no ear, mono copy. 1966 inner sleeve so seems to line up with the above.
In fact "real" BN copies of this title - meaning being manufactured at the Plastylite pressing plant - do not (seem to) exist; the first copies date from the "Liberty-era". What might be confusing though, is that these first pressings still have Blue Note USA - and not Liberty - labels (but no ear). This is not unique for this title, as Blue Note kept using older labels - sometimes even w/Lexington address - during the Liberty era.
Anyway, Liberty or not, the vinyl edition of Dippin' does sound great!
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One that I have long been curious about is this live 1968 date :
I know the sound is supposed to be dodgy , but with Kenny Dorham on it I have to hear this . Does anybody here have this ??
I bought a second hand vinyl copy of that record a couple of months ago, because of the presence of KD.
Actually I found it a bit dissapointing, mainly because of the poor recording quality and the spare soloing of KD. Perhaps I will give it another spin tonight.
Peter
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If you like "Happy Girl", you will certainly like "Hip Walk", also on the SABA/MPS label. It's a great session, also with Carmell Jones (tp), Francy Boland (p), Jimmy Woode (b) and Kenny Clarke (ds).
It is (or was?) available on CD (together with Happy Girl) but also on a replica of the original vinyl issue (which is pretty expensive).
Slightly more modern (sometimes w/electric bass) but also very good are Davis' albums on the Segué label, "Makatuka" (1970) and "The 6th Sense In The 11th House" (1972). I think these are only avalaible on vinyl, but are not too difficult (or expensive) to find.
Here is a website with a discography: Nathan Davis discography
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If you want to make quick bucks, you might consider selling the collection on a record fair. Original Blue Notes are obviously much wanted by record collectors.
The rarer items will probably fetch (much) higher prices on eBay, but it takes a lot of work to describe each item properly, make pictures (preferably front and back of the jacket and both labels) and to grade the vinyl very seriously. Especially with the expensive items, collectors are very picky!
Are you by any chance situated in Holland? If you are, I will be happy to advise you about prices and everything (if I could get a first pick
)Regards,
Peter
Will Davis Trio
in The Vinyl Frontier
Posted
Never seen or heard it.
I read somewhere that Bill Davis was a pianoplayer from Detroit who played with Howard McGhee during the 40's. Would he be the same Bill Davis who played piano on Kenny Burrel's Soul Call?