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Stevie Mclean
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Posts posted by Stevie Mclean
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On 5/2/2024 at 6:36 AM, soulpope said:
A Ben Tucker master class ....
Along with one of my personal favourites:
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Face to Face has long been my personal favourite soul jazz album with Swingin' at Sugar Ray's being my favourite song on the album. Therefore, I was pleasantly surprised to find that Whap! from The Honeydripper is basically the same song. As I was listening to the head it struck me as quite similar, but boy was I unprepared for Grant's solo. He almost note for note replayed his solo from S.A.S.R. But hey I don't blame him, it's a legendary solo imo and the McDuff session was just 4 days after the Willette session so I'll give him a pass.
I'm interested to hear about other examples of duplicated solos, I'm sure this is not an isolated incident.
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TALKIN ABOUT GREEEEAZZZEE!!!
Larry Young's comping and solo on Dexter's Deck from Forrest Fire is a master class in greasy funky subtle wonderful brilliant intelligent musical awesomeness. The way he constructs the solo off of a simple theme and slowly builds up to such a high energy, foot stompin' groove is just fascinating.And all that at age 19! Talkin' about LARRY YOUNG!
What about that Jimmy Forrest too eh? A pairing made for wax!
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On the underrated front, I have always enjoyed Ben Tucker's playing on many "soul-adjacent" records. He always had such a booming sound and could play with the rhythm just enough to make it interesting while always staying in the pocket.
In a similar vein to Tucker, I also really enjoy Eldee Young's contributions to the Ramsey Lewis Trio. I dare say he might be my favourite part!
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6 hours ago, soulpope said:
@ Stevie Mclean : probably you should consider adding "or underrated" to the thread title, so we could discuss even more interesting bass players here 🧐🤓 ....
well who would want to miss a discussion of that kind?
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15 minutes ago, mhatta said:
Gary Mapp (played with Monk)
Putter Smith (not really obscure, 007 movie fame)
Addison Farmer (not really obscure, Art's twin bro, died too soon)
I haven't heard anything of Mapp or Smith, however I quite enjoy Farmer's work in Mal Waldron's trio. His passing was indeed much too soon. There is an interview with Art in which he discusses his brothers untimely passing and gives some insight on how it affected him and his view of life and death, quite an interesting and emotional read.
16 minutes ago, soulpope said:Nick Di Geronimo ..... three appearances with Andrew Cyrille between 1978 (Black Saint) and 1983 (Soul Note) .... what a fantastic bass player and no traces to be found at all ....
I've really been getting into Cyrille by way of Walt Dickerson so I am excited to give these records a listen.
7 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:Somewhere I read that Gary Mapp was a policeman.
About Addison Farmer: Once I heard a bassist "Julius Farmer" who was Art´s nephew. He even looked a bit like Art. Maybe this Julius Farmer was the son of Addison ? I heard Julius only once at a Jazzfestival, but he played with Larry Coryell Trio as well as with Alphonse Mouzon electric group, so he did 2 features at one festival, which happens rarely. He was also the bassist of the after hour jam session.Arthur Phipps also a good choice: I think he was an insider´s musician in the Brooklyn jazz community.
- How about John Simmons who played with Monk as well as with Tadd Dameron ? It seems that later he disappeared completly.
- Who was that misterious Ebenezer Paul ? He played on those 1941 Minton sessions but otherwise I never heard about him.
- Jimmy Rowser ? Isn´t he on one of the Coltrane LP´s on Prestige. He sounds interesting, because he doesn´t have that long tone, he has that boppish short and more percussive tone, it sounds very fine on a fast version of "Woody´n You".
In an interview Jackie McLean stated that Phipps left the scene completely to follow his true passion of photography. He also said that music was not Phipps passion and that he did it to make some bread. If that happens to be true, I can't find any evident of that in his playing. He always sounded great in his few recordings.
I know Rowser from one of my favourite Hank and Dorham sessions Curtain Call. I cant say that his playing on that album struck me in any way but I'm sure he contributes his fair share to a favourite of mine. Will give a more focused listen to him for sure.
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I'll start with some obscure players.
Carl Brown (His only recording was Steve Lacy's "Evidence" session.)
Arthur Phipps (NY based, played on some Jackie McLean records and on the Barrow-Amram quartet's "The Eastern Scene")
I have updated the title to include underrated players as well. Let's not be sticklers for who's is or isn't "underrated", let's just discuss some bassists who deserve more recognition than they have received (so basically all of 'em!).
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1 minute ago, Dan Gould said:
I voted for Quiet Kenny cause its a long-term favorite.
I'd have to listen again (and thanks for the excuse) to comment on what Flanagan brings to the table. It's just primo KD to me.
And you just can't beat primo KD... or regular KD for that matter.
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I noticed that Tommy Flanagan shows up on a suspiciously large amount of my favorite trumpet quartet records. I think it could be interesting to see which one is the most popular along with just starting a discussion on why Tommy works so well on all of these wonderful recordings.
Personally I am torn between Quiet Kenny and The King and I, mostly for trumpet related reasons. However, I am undecided on which is my favorite for Tommy Flanagan related reasons.
Please let me know if I'm missing any, these are only the records that I am aware of (with a heavy 50's/60's bias).
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On 1/17/2023 at 4:25 AM, Jack Pine said:
It is a similar situation with my own wife. She passively listens to me practicing standards on piano, often for hours every day, and has become quite familiar with the melodies. She isn't so familiar with the names of the songs, but if something comes on XM radio that's in my repertoire she is very quick to pick it out. I think it is much more the melody that sticks in her head though, not really the changes. She is fairly musically inclined though, played french horn and percussion in high school.
I can really relate to not remembering song names. However I might go as far as to say I am more inclined to recognize changes rather than a melody. I enjoy figuring out contrafacts, I have even started a spreadsheet categorizing contrafacts by their original version (with the hopes that it will help me one day remember song titles).
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17 minutes ago, JSngry said:
Sound like he's overblowing the low (tenor) C to get the overtones as a multiphonic.
It's done by a combination of embouchure and air column. It's also the result of studied application of both. Overtone control to this degree is one of the more "advanced/basics" of developing a really strong embouchure and breath control.
Simply put, any note on the horn will have overtones that can be provided by overblowing and/or redirecting the airflow by constricting the embouchure. Learn to control that and then you can get additional overtones to speak together as a multiphonic.
Now, there might be an alternate fingering involved, something to split the fundamental up into the overtones. I myself can't speak with any certainty about this other than to say that when dealing with the low tones, pretty anything, especially right hand side keys, can be used to disrupt the airflow and therefore the fundamental.
This begins as a basic matter of saxophone sound production but it really all comes down to the acoustic properties of a conical bore instrument and the nodes for each note. For that, I can't help you!
Thanks for the detailed explanation Jim, exactly what I was looking for. I love all the creative sounds Teef gets out of his instruments, like his humming while playing flute thing that also confounds me!
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On the wonderful album "Images of Curtis Fuller", there is a song "Judyful", on which Teef opens his solo with this blaring note that I can only describe as a train horn! he does it another time later on as well. I just love how it sounds and it absolutely commands anybody within earshot to pay attention. Can anybody hip me to what he is actually doing with the saxophone to achieve this effect? I assume some kind of overblowing / loose embouchure to get extra vibration out of the reed?
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I'm a little late to this thread but I have really been on a Harden kick lately, so I enjoyed reading everybody's contributions to this thread.
I do have one thing to add, which I found quite interesting...
In Bill Brower's interview with Curtis Fuller for the Smithsonian History Museum, Fuller has some very... interesting comments on Wilbur's playing/performance style along with what seems to be an allusion to some time spent in a mental institution.
Brower: One Time I saw Brooks and he had these toy drummers, he had all these toys drummers. In some kind of way he could… He had this laser thing that he could trigger them with. You know when the Chinese had like the –– he had like an army of toy drummers in some kind of a way he was triggering the shit. He was out there.
Curtis Fuller: He was out there! You know where he is now, or where he was?
Brower: Insane Asylum.
Curtis Fuller: Yeah, he and Wilbur Harden. Now, Wilbur, ‘Trane loved him, but I couldn’t stand to watch him. He’s a guy that you, literally, could hear him think. He would stand on the bandstand and be moving about “click, click, click, click” He would say, (scats very sparse, calculated melody).
Brower: So, he’s editing--
Curtis Fuller: He’s editing as he’s trying to play. I mean, do you know what that is to watch? Win, and Cedar I couldn’t stand to watch. Cedar had a way like Elvin. Cedar’s time movement with his foot, I couldn’t look at it
Brower: Because he would throw you off?
Curtis Fuller: He would throw me off because his foot would move out of rhythm, with no distinct pattern or nothing. Sometimes, I would stand there and look like, “What the hell! How did you come up with that one?”
Brower: But, Wilbur Harden, on top of his playing was his significance in writing
Curtis Fuller: Who’s that?
Brower: Wilbur Harden.
Curtis Fuller: Yeah, some writing but not a whole lot. Then, there was another guy that was just like him. ‘Trane didn’t like him too much. He ended up with Mingus. Clarence something…
Brower: Shaw.
Curtis Fuller: Yeah, you know all these guys. Yeah, he was just late Wilbur. I never could get the gist of his… It was always something that was… He kept anticipating that he was going to play something but it would always be the complete opposite of what you thought he would do. The line would be so discombobulated. You would be like, “Where did that come from?” That’s the way he heard it so you can question the guy. I used to stand next to him and say, “Nobody’s home.”
It's interesting how Fuller felt this way yet still used him for the Images session. Maybe his negative comments were more influenced by Harden's playing later on, possibly due to worsening mental and physical health.
His description of Harden's "editing" style of composing an improvisation while in the middle of a performance sounds quite odd, I would have loved to see this going on firsthand! I can't say it doesn't make sense, as Fuller states in the last response, Harden had a very sparse and unpredictable sound, (which is one of the things I love about his playing, unlike Fuller.), I can kind of picture Harden standing there, thinking about his next line, in the middle of his recorded solos.
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Apparently there was an unreleased take of Short Story done 3 days before the full recording of In n' Out with different personnel.
Kenny Dorham, trumpet; Joe Henderson, tenor sax; Andrew Hill, piano; Eddie Khan, bass; Elvin Jones, drums.
Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, April 7, 1964
1331 Short Story Blue Note rejected
Does anyone have more details on this? Was there conflict for Andrew Hill or was the group just not working (unlikely since most had already been together on Our Thing and POD.)?Whatever the reason, I am quite disappointed. Would have loved to hear Our Thing part 2 WITH ELVIN!
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On 5/30/2022 at 6:51 AM, Holy Ghost said:
This dude got him beat. Who's got that dude beat? Mal Waldron. That's who. Every fucking cover, he's smoking. Think that dude lived, breathed and dreamt about cigarettes. Only time I think when it comes to puffing big time is Blakey, or that Elvin Jones and Richard Davis Impulse record, where they're smoking like there's another carton more to smoke. That whole album cover is smothered in smoke.
I think you might be thinking of Mal's green medicinal cigarettes. I remember a documentary where he talks about needing them to manage the consequences of his overdose.
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Wow! Thank you so much! This is an awesome piece of history and a great look into the intelligent mind of Sonny.
I wholeheartedly agree with his message and I think this letter is a testament to his long and fruitful career and life.
I am also a fan of the artistic choices made on the first letter of each paragraph.
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I was listening to Soul Groove by Johnny Griffin and Matthew Gee and found it quite fascinating to listen to Big John and Hank Jones playing organ on the same record. Of course Patton lays down the grease as always, but it is very interesting to hear Hanks soft touch translated to organ in comparison. I really enjoy his melodic playing and I find it to be a nice change of pace from the likes of Big John and the other soul organ grinders.
There seems to be an old thread on organ players playing piano, but I can seem to find any reference to piano players playing organ. Id love to hear of other examples pianists dippin' their toes in the grease bucket and what y'all think about their playing.
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On 7/11/2023 at 7:44 AM, BillF said:
Talking of young tenor players, I think Abdias Armenteros (aged 23) is worth watching:
Thank you for bringing some spotlight to these brilliant young musicians. As a young'un myself I take much inspiration from them and I feel that they are woefully underrepresented in the jazz discourse.
I would also like to state that I often see you posting on the "what are you listening to" board and I think that I have enthusiastically agreed with every single post.
All of this to say, I think we should be friends Bill.
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I've been listening to this album a lot recently, especially since I have been on a bit of a Lacy kick. I also really enjoy Evidence with Don Cherry for similar reasons.
what really draws me to these albums is the collective improvisation over a repeating melodic idea without much attention payed to traditional harmony (I enjoy the piano-less trio and quartet setting). I understand that this is the basis of a lot of "free jazz" but I feel like these albums are still relatively easy to listen to and the vocabulary that they are using is not too abstract.
I think the fact that they are playing monk tunes also contributes a lot to the sound as it seems like this attention to melodic and rhythmic structure rather than harmonic structure is a natural extension of how monk writes and plays.
I am very interested in finding more music that has these qualities. I am open to more Lacy but I am also interested in finding similar sounding artists and groups playing more than just monk.
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48 minutes ago, BillF said:
👍
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20 hours ago, Larry Kart said:
For a short while in the '50s JR's abrupt, hocket-like way of phrasing was known as "the Peck." Shafi Hadi/Curtis Porter was another player who was so inclined. The Peck was more commonly used by horns in ensemble passages, e.g. by Donald Byrd and Jackie McLean with George Wallington. IIRC JR's use of The Peck was rather short-lived.
That is very interesting, do you know of anywhere I can read more about this topic?
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16 hours ago, soulpope said:Good platter which still leaves me wondering how well Thad Jones fits in here ....
I absolutely adore Thad's playing on this. I find that he compliments monk so well and it sounds like he is having a good time on this record.
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1 hour ago, optatio said:
Inspired by BillF this morning I have listened to
God I love this album so much. I'm going to go listen right now. To answer my own post from the other day... this is my super band, and they DO live up to the hype.
Silver, Ware and Jones is an unbeatable combination imo. J.R and Ira could be stone-deaf and this would still sound great, luckily they are far from it! 😁
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2 minutes ago, soulpope said:
What about Charlie Rouse + Woody Shaw + Mal Waldron + Reggie Workman + Ed Blackwell .... well this happened in 1986 and definitely fulfilled all (or at least my) expectations ....
I personally am a sucker for many of Mal's prestige all-star dates but I agree that he really kept the tradition going with his latter groups. He really knew how to put a band together. I think his play-style, especially after his recovery, really lends itself to bringing the best out of soloists and providing a steady platform for them to build their solos off of.
Larry Young on Dexter's Deck
in Artists & Recordings
Posted · Edited by Stevie Mclean
Yeah, at that point in time Ervin and Young's inside out styles really paired quite well. When Young and Forrest recorded Forrest Fire (3 years prior) Young was still quite JOS-inspired which gave him a forward looking but still relatively straight ahead sound that worked very well with Forrest's modern tough-tenor style. It's cool to see Young work with a variety of soloists as his conception evolved through time.