Prince Lasha Quintet feat. Sonny Simmons

[ep1str0phy]

Hey, folks:

Quick question: does anyone know the accurate personnel listings to Prince Lasha/Sonny Simmons's 'The Cry'? Fantasy's 2001 reissue is somewhat vague (and doesn't list all the horn doubling; bass cl seems to show up on track #4, for example, and it's nowhere to be found in the liner credits). I suppose I can suss all the info out from close listening, but perhaps someone has already figured it out (I just got the album today)...

Thanks-E

[HW!]

Quick question: does anyone know the accurate personnel listings to Prince Lasha/Sonny Simmons's 'The Cry'? Fantasy's 2001 reissue is somewhat vague (and doesn't list all the horn doubling; bass cl seems to show up on track #4, for example, and it's nowhere to be found in the liner credits).

The personnel listed is accurate, but here's to add a few details : Sonny is playing alto saxophone on all tracks, Prince Lasha is doubling on flute (no alto parts from him on this record) AND bass clarinet on 'Ghost from the Past'. He doesn't appear on 'Bojangles' and 'Lost Generation'.

Edited May 2, 2006 by HW!

[ep1str0phy]

Thanks... after spinning the record a couple of times, it seems as if the instrumentation is pretty straightforward. It's still a little confusing, however, that Lasha is leading the date despite the fact that Sonny gets two trio features. Was this always intentional, or was someone planning a Simmons solo date, too?

Edited May 3, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[HW!]

As far as I know the group was Sonny's (and most of the compositions) and Lasha ended up on the date. "Prince Lasha Quintet feat. Sonny Simmons" might have been more of a marketing trick than a human and musical reality. Not to lessen Lasha's power on this session, that said... It's one of the finest transitionnal record from the period, don't you think ?

[ep1str0phy]

As far as I know the group was Sonny's (and most of the compositions) and Lasha ended up on the date. "Prince Lasha Quintet feat. Sonny Simmons" might have been more of a marketing trick than a human and musical reality. Not to lessen Lasha's power on this session, that said... It's one of the finest transitionnal record from the period, don't you think ?

At the same time--the Sonny/Lasha 'Firebirds' co-op (name not used on this session) was technically Lasha's band (assuming leadership under different personnel). I'm assuming that it's just a matter of packaging and marketing, although it's really odd how Lasha doesn't appear on a couple tunes from his own date... I can only hope that there's some missing material somewhere out there.

[erhodes]

The original issue of "The Cry" is Contemporary S7610. No bass clarinet is listed in the liner notes and I don't remember hearing anything but Lasha's flute and Simmons' alto. Given that the track order might be different on the cd, tell me which track is #4 and I will confirm from the Contemporary lp. On the vinyl #4 is "Ghost of the Past". Otherwise, the personnel is Prince Lasha, fl, Sonny Simmons, as, Gary Peacock, b, Mark Proctor, b, Gene Stone, d. Proctor does not play on "Bojangles", "Lost Generation", and "A.Y.".

AFAIK, the group was a collaborative one. "Firebirds" was not recorded at around the same time. "The Cry" is November 21, 1962; "Firebirds" is September 28 & 29, 1967. Both Lasha and Simmons recorded separately in the interim between the two lp's.

[Niko]

The original issue of "The Cry" is Contemporary S7610. No bass clarinet is listed in the liner notes and I don't remember hearing anything but Lasha's flute and Simmons' alto. Given that the track order might be different on the cd, tell me which track is #4 and I will confirm from the Contemporary lp. On the vinyl #4 is "Ghost of the Past". Otherwise, the personnel is Prince Lasha, fl, Sonny Simmons, as, Gary Peacock, b, Mark Proctor, b, Gene Stone, d. Proctor does not play on "Bojangles", "Lost Generation", and "A.Y.".

The second horn playing the head of Ghost of the Past clearly sounds like some sort of clarinet to me (it's somewhat softer than the alto saxophone and doesn't solo - I always thought it "symbolized" the Ghost of the past echoing Simmons alto and wasn't credited to emphasize that it was not just Lasha playing but the whole past of "Bird, Chu Berry, Clifford Brown, Richie Powell, Charlie Christian - all the outstanding musicians who passed before we even were present." I love those liner notes)

Whether it's a normal clarinet, a bass clarinet or the alto clarinet Lasha plays on the cover of Firebirds - I can't hear, so why not bass clarinet...

[erhodes]

The original issue of "The Cry" is Contemporary S7610. No bass clarinet is listed in the liner notes and I don't remember hearing anything but Lasha's flute and Simmons' alto. Given that the track order might be different on the cd, tell me which track is #4 and I will confirm from the Contemporary lp. On the vinyl #4 is "Ghost of the Past". Otherwise, the personnel is Prince Lasha, fl, Sonny Simmons, as, Gary Peacock, b, Mark Proctor, b, Gene Stone, d. Proctor does not play on "Bojangles", "Lost Generation", and "A.Y.".

The second horn playing the head of Ghost of the Past clearly sounds like some sort of clarinet to me (it's somewhat softer than the alto saxophone and doesn't solo - I always thought it "symbolized" the Ghost of the past echoing Simmons alto and wasn't credited to emphasize that it was not just Lasha playing but the whole past of "Bird, Chu Berry, Clifford Brown, Richie Powell, Charlie Christian - all the outstanding musicians who passed before we even were present." I love those liner notes)

Whether it's a normal clarinet, a bass clarinet or the alto clarinet Lasha plays on the cover of Firebirds - I can't hear, so why not bass clarinet...

Indeed.

I hadn't listened to that piece in awhile. It's definitely some sort of clarinet but I have no other details and know of no discographical resource.

[HW!]

Quick sidenote : there's no discographical ressource, but I gave the information relying on Mr Simmons' own remembrance of the session. 40 years elapsed, but I hope it was accurate. Mr Lasha or a good musician's ear could tell. If anyone gets around the right answer, let me know, it would be useful for Mr Simmons' discography.

Ed, thanks for making the distinction between the pre-1962 situation and what followed. From 1954 to 1960 the group functionned intermittently (Simmons stayed in the Bay Area, whereas Lasha was going to and fro, Texas most notably) and was either booked as "Prince Lasha", "Prince Lasha & Huey Simmons", "Huey Simmons". There was a gap in 1960-1962. The association started again in 1962, not long before the recording was planned. According to Simmons, "The Cry!" was technically his date (he gathered the musician), then Lasha joined. The scheduled gigs (the group travelled from the West Coast to NYC via Canada) might have influenced Lester Koenigs' choice of a group name, as the LP was released while they were on tour. Anyway, the gigs from november 1962 to april 1963 were rather billed as the "Sonny Simmons-Prince Lasha 5tet" and the hierarchy established on the cover disappeared. Shortly thereafter, they took part to a batch of famous recordings ("It Is Revealed", sessions with Dolphy, the Bossa Tres and Elvin Jones), but Lasha started his own groups and Simmons dismissed to the West Coast. In 1966 Lasha went back from Europe to the West Coast, while Simmons was back in NYC, and only a short visit from the latter provided "The Firebirds", which is mainly a studio thing (to fulfill the contract with Contemporary!). Not much happened until Simmons' final return to the Bay Area in '69. In 1970-71 they did a few festivals (2 or 3), and some gigs with Hutcherson and the others, but it wasn't much of a working group, as Lasha and Simmons had their own and separate bands. Later on Lasha kept the name for his subsequent projects.

Hope that's not out of your subject and that it clarifies the matter.

Edited May 19, 2006 by HW!

[erhodes]

If anyone gets around the right answer, let me know, it would be useful for Mr Simmons' discography.

Ed, thanks for making the distinction between the pre-1962 situation and what followed.

The thanks goes to you for all of the good information. Are you doing a Sonny Simmons discography?

[HW!]

Thanks Ed. Well, I didn't mean to advertize anything when I registered on the forum - I've been reading it for months, and I just saw a discussion starting on Sonny and the Prince, which doesn't happen tht often, but... you're asking, so - Yes, I have been working on a Sonny Simmons sessionography for two years. The discographical information is already online at Sonny's website ("Hello World! The Sonny Simmons homepage"), and the sessionography... will require a few more years, time to sort private tapes, boots, and collect a much difficult to find data on gigs announcement from the past (it's a collective work here, we're a group). Hope it's an enjoyable work to read...

[Niko]

Yes, I have been working on a Sonny Simmons sessionography for two years. The discographical information is already online at Sonny's website ("Hello World! The Sonny Simmons homepage"), and the sessionography... -

www.sonnysimmons.org is a great great page, I discovered it some weeks ago after buying Firebirds and The Cry... so much information and I really like the way it is presented! thank you (and the others) a lot for maintaining it.

[erhodes]

Thanks Ed. Well, I didn't mean to advertize anything when I registered on the forum - I've been reading it for months, and I just saw a discussion starting on Sonny and the Prince, which doesn't happen tht often, but... you're asking, so - Yes, I have been working on a Sonny Simmons sessionography for two years. The discographical information is already online at Sonny's website ("Hello World! The Sonny Simmons homepage"), and the sessionography... will require a few more years, time to sort private tapes, boots, and collect a much difficult to find data on gigs announcement from the past (it's a collective work here, we're a group). Hope it's an enjoyable work to read...

I'm glad to hear it. Aside from the work on Sonny himself, the light you can shed in the early 60's CA (mostly Bay area?) scene where Sonny, Dewey Redman, and Pharoah all seemed to converge will be an important addition to the literature. I look forward to it.

[ep1str0phy]

Quick sidenote : there's no discographical ressource, but I gave the information relying on Mr Simmons' own remembrance of the session. 40 years elapsed, but I hope it was accurate. Mr Lasha or a good musician's ear could tell. If anyone gets around the right answer, let me know, it would be useful for Mr Simmons' discography.

Ed, thanks for making the distinction between the pre-1962 situation and what followed. From 1954 to 1960 the group functionned intermittently (Simmons stayed in the Bay Area, whereas Lasha was going to and fro, Texas most notably) and was either booked as "Prince Lasha", "Prince Lasha & Huey Simmons", "Huey Simmons". There was a gap in 1960-1962. The association started again in 1962, not long before the recording was planned. According to Simmons, "The Cry!" was technically his date (he gathered the musician), then Lasha joined. The scheduled gigs (the group travelled from the West Coast to NYC via Canada) might have influenced Lester Koenigs' choice of a group name, as the LP was released while they were on tour. Anyway, the gigs from november 1962 to april 1963 were rather billed as the "Sonny Simmons-Prince Lasha 5tet" and the hierarchy established on the cover disappeared. Shortly thereafter, they took part to a batch of famous recordings ("It Is Revealed", sessions with Dolphy, the Bossa Tres and Elvin Jones), but Lasha started his own groups and Simmons dismissed to the West Coast. In 1966 Lasha went back from Europe to the West Coast, while Simmons was back in NYC, and only a short visit from the latter provided "The Firebirds", which is mainly a studio thing (to fulfill the contract with Contemporary!). Not much happened until Simmons' final return to the Bay Area in '69. In 1970-71 they did a few festivals (2 or 3), and some gigs with Hutcherson and the others, but it wasn't much of a working group, as Lasha and Simmons had their own and separate bands. Later on Lasha kept the name for his subsequent projects.

Hope that's not out of your subject and that it clarifies the matter.

I'm actually pretty shocked that this turned into a full-on discussion. Thanks, guys--cleared a lot of stuff up (pretty illuminating about the origins of the "The Cry!" date, too).

[HW!]

What can I say - thank you all for the compliments, really. It's been lots of hard work, and there's more to come in terms of articles ans CDs. All credits for the biographical data to Marc Chaloin (he wrote an important essay for Revenant's Ayler boxset) who's been working with Sonny for 10 years on his autobiography. There'll be tons of unheard stories in that book dealing with the various turns that jazz took on the West Coast - and yes, it states the importance of the Bay Area in the hard-bop > free-jazz transition, and the later period - how the scene tried to survive during the 70's. I'll keep you posted... Thanks again for your interest.

Another question for all the Firebirds die-hard fans out there - Simmons and Lasha both attended a recording session with Sonny Rollins about the days of their arrival in NYC. Anybody knows who's in charge of the RCA vaults these days ? Nothing surfaced in the Sonny Rollins boxset, but it really happened. Message in a bottle...

[Niko]

two sonny simmons recommendations, here

http://www.andyhamilton.org.uk/andy_pdfs/Sonny_Simmons.pdf

is a fine article by andy hamilton, originally published in the wire, quite a bit of the information is already in cliffords great aaj interview, but other things were new to me (for instance that gavin bushell was a teacher of dolphy and simmons in the early sixties)

plus i recently got simmons' "the traveller" on jazzaway records and enjoy it a lot, it's simmons plus strings, but the strings are more arranged like, say, in a bartok string quartet than on charlie parker with strings; this somehow allows to build up high levels of energy without the usual, more brutal ways of powerful playing ( ); the best "new" jazz album i got in years (not that i heard many...) have ordered one of the other jazzaway releases by simmons but it's not here yet...

sound samples are here (most of them without simmons but you get an idea of the setting):

http://www.jazzaway.musiconline.no/shop/di...um.asp?id=29650

Edited February 18, 2009 by Niko