Primitive

[cih]

just curious - do you regard the word 'primitive' as problematic when used to describe music or art? Obviously it depends on the context but, for example John Fahey's 'American Primitive' CDs featuring Charlie Patton, Jaybird Coleman etc... does it suggest that something has been absorbed and 'improved' upon since, or else that something has qualities which transcend its origins - like 'primal'... ?

Edited September 12, 2011 by cih

[BillF]

I think I'd be cautious about using that word nowadays. In the Victorian age the Early Renaissance Italian artists (e.g. Piero Della Francesca) were referred to as the "Italian Primitives", as taste at the time preferred the later High Renaissance artists (e.g. Raphael). We don't feel like that now and the word "primitive" with its value judgement has been dropped.

Note too the value judgement in Wikipedia's definition of a "primitive culture": "One that lacks major signs of economic development or modernity" (Underlining mine).

On the other hand, I feel very happy about the track "Primitive Cats" on this disc:

Edited September 12, 2011 by BillF

[jeffcrom]

"Problematic" is a good description of the word. It could be considered kind of a loaded word, but I use "primitive" when there's no other word that works as well. Of the two artists from the Fahey anthology you mention, I wouldn't describe Patton as primitive at all, but it's a good description of Jaybird Coleman's music. And I can't think of any other word that better describes Othar Turner's fife playing, but when I'm talking about it I make it clear that I'm talking about the music, not the man.

[cih]

I think I'd be cautious about using that word nowadays. In the Victorian age the Early Renaissance Italian artists (e.g. Piero Della Francesca) were referred to as the "Italian Primitives", as taste at the time preferred the later High Renaissance artists (e.g. Raphael). We don't feel like that now and the word "primitive" with its value judgement has been dropped.

Yes- I just read an anthology of writings on the topic - 'Primitivism and Twentieth Century Art' - in which Jean Dubuffet says a similar thing about the modern reversal of those values which held sway since the renaissance. but I think at least for a while the word stayed around and became a positive rather than a negative (but not without controversy)

"Problematic" is a good description of the word. It could be considered kind of a loaded word, but I use "primitive" when there's no other word that works as well. Of the two artists from the Fahey anthology you mention, I wouldn't describe Patton as primitive at all, but it's a good description of Jaybird Coleman's music. And I can't think of any other word that better describes Othar Turner's fife playing, but when I'm talking about it I make it clear that I'm talking about the music, not the man.

i agree it's hard to find another word that fits - even the writers who criticize it often seem to employ it sneakily - "so-called primitive" etc. To my understanding it's purely an aesthetic thing, so Othar Turner definitely fits, and to me, the steady, quick rhythmic pulse of Patton's playing with the slower, drawn out vocal over the top sounds 'primitive' to my ears - or 'primal' in some way, even if the music is actually complex (though I'd hesitate to use the word, purely out of anxiety about being misunderstood I think)

[JSngry]

Even when meant as a compliment, there's often the inherent condescension of self-loathing in the use of the word.

[cih]

I just looked up self-loathing on wikipedia and it says above the entry:

"This article needs attention from an expert on the subject"

[BillF]

I just looked up self-loathing on wikipedia and it says above the entry:

"This article needs attention from an expert on the subject"

[JSngry]

HA!