Attention, Pied Pipers!

[fasstrack]

The backroom at Smalls is where a lot of philosophizing (and cigarette smoking-ecch, and please don't rat them out. They'll quit, I swear-occurs among musicians, friends, dates, and the odd Rosacrucian (sp?). And so it was I was deep in conversation with friend trumpeter Dwayne Clemmons about, of all things, music. We were talking about the way a lot of the generation that came behind mine-now in their 40s-play really well, but many latched on to one hero, or maybe a few, as models and got mired in imitatition. Soon others jumped on, sort of sad b/c these guys are pretty sharp cookies talent-wise to be still doing this. Dwayne coined a nice phrase for this: the Pied Piper syndrome. It takes spine and one may be shunned by the herd to dig deeper, be oneself (through one's influences, can't deny those, but add the quest for more personal meaning) but is artistic death, in a more comprehensive view spiritual death not to. Here's a chance to name those in any walk of life who forged ahead and inspired.

Edited September 16, 2012 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

In jazz my vote has to go to Pres, then Monk. In spiritual life there's Ghandi. And I like Buddha and Krishnamurti saying, in effect, 'I only know what I know. Figure out your own life, pal'. There's a great saying from Dogen: 'Don't follow in the footsteps of the Masters. Seek what they sought'.

Edited September 16, 2012 by fasstrack

[cih]

I don't seek - to find is the thing - Picasso

MONK / KNOW

[A Lark Ascending]

The spirit of 19thC Romanticism dies hard.

[fasstrack]

Not really sure what you meant, but I'm definitely a Romantic-of the 20th Century, and trying (w/o much success (; ) to adjust to the 21st. Today I passed a thing of beauty, in Brooklyn. It was called I think the Wall of Heroes, a mural w/portraits by schoolchildren. There was Mandela and Malcolm, and others. Under each face was a word: think, inspire, act, lead. I wonder how many people pass by everyday too busy, maybe w/nothing really, to notice this gem of a gift from the purest among us-children. It was humbling to see and feel, and I wanted to share this.

[A Lark Ascending]

The deification of 'the artist'.

While the one-offs and utterly unique musicians are fabulous to behold I'd say the broader spectrum of music, often based on imitation and incremental change, is extremely rich. I love Paul Quinichette's contributions to the Billie Holiday 50s records despite the fact that he is clearly heavily influenced by Lester Young. I love E.J. Moeran even though I can hear the Vaughan Williams borrowings.

It's also a Romantic thing to single out individual musicians (or politicians) from a complex context and project them as the driving force. Without belittling Martin Luther King's achievement he was very much the product of much broader socio-economic-political forces and the figurehead of a diverse and complex movement.

Romanticism chose to smooth out the complexities and present cultural change in terms of 'Great Men' (and occasionally women). I think it's much more interesting than that.

[JSngry]

Dare to NOT dream!

[fasstrack]

The deification of 'the artist'.

While the one-offs and utterly unique musicians are fabulous to behold I'd say the broader spectrum of music, often based on imitation and incremental change, is extremely rich. I love Paul Quinichette's contributions to the Billie Holiday 50s records despite the fact that he is clearly heavily influenced by Lester Young. .Romanticism..'GreatMen'

Wow. Great response! I may have to rethink this. I personally am opposed to ego-driven art-me me me is a bore-and like music to have a social purpose. What I get from Romanticism is a love of beauty and a perhaps childish desire to have the world abide by one's ideal of what life should be like. That can lead to bitter disappointment and/or denial. All of us in the arts are overgrown children. Same w/idealists in all fields. I like the idea of strong individuals coming together for the good of all, a cross btwn. JS Mill and-don't hate me-Ayn Rand.

[A Lark Ascending]

There's lots I like about Romanticism - I react to natural beauty in the countryside just as the Romantics taught us to react. And they certainly had a finger on the darker forces inside humanity in contrast to the idealism of the Enlightenment.

But the whole pedestal thing doesn't really appeal to me.

[JSngry]

The whole "pedestal" thing..that can go both ways.

I mean, let's take people who have a vision, do the work, leap the hurdles and DO something exceptional with their life, let's take these people and put them on a pedestal and use them as examples of what humans can do with their lives. I got no problem with that. Dreams, role models, inspirational figures, all that stuff is good, and a big part of waht keeps us from settling into an easily/permanently collective state of cloddy muddleheaded servitude. It's one thing to accept that knowing that you have options, quite another to think that that is the only role which you can ever fill in life.

Now, let's NOT place people on the pedestal for the purpose of creating an industry around them, or for glorifying them as being our intrinsic superiors, or for using their achievements to dictate to us what literal form/direction our achievements should take.

Heroes, not idols. That's what I like to see.

The pedestal is benevolent as long as there is always room for more people on it, and as long as rising to it is encouraged. It's not when it is used for a guard station at a maximum security prison. It may well need remodeling, but I don't think it ever needs destroying.

But inspiring people to dream, to act, to work, to more fully know who and what not just who they are but who they can be,hey, I'm ok with that.

[fasstrack]

Nor me. But I also can't deny that history was changed many times-some for the good (any # of mvmts. in the arts and elsewhere), some bad (Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al or Jim Jones/David Koresh by strong individuals, visionaries if you like, coming together. The dark side of it for me, I'm not sure Romanticism is the culprit here, is a manipulation of millions for odious reasons once absolute power and its evils are achieved. That's when people are sometimes slaughtered by the millions. Few can forget the image of Hussein in jail. He looked like a little kid punished for something very bad and not only in complete denial about doing it but irritated as hell at his captors. How dare they interfere with his God-given right to do any damn thing he pleased. It's weird, but the only way to avoid falling prey to someone like that is to be a strong independent thinker oneself.

[JSngry]

It's weird, but the only way to avoid falling prey to someone like that is to be a strong independent thinker oneself.

Not weird at all, really. If you don't accept responsibility for owning your own life (as much as possible, anyway), then somebody else will. Always.

Which is not to say that "surrender" is not part of the equation, it most certainly is, and should be. But it's a question of to who/what, and why, and waht happens once you do.

Yin-yang, complementary opposites, seeking balance/harmony is all aspects of life, all that mess.

[fasstrack]

Hey man, let's not be too hard on cloddy muddleheaded servitude. Lots of bucks to be made off it (:

[JSngry]

Especially for the servant owners!

[alocispepraluger102]

EARLY EARLY ORNETTE, JEANNE LEE, CECIL

HOW MUCH DOES ONE HAVE TO GIVE TO BE REAL. THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH CREATIVE GAS IN EACH OF US. THIS WORLD ASKS CREATIVE ARTISTS FOR FAR TOO MUCH.

DON'T THE BEST ARTISTS ULTIMATELY JUST START IMITATING OURSELVES?

Edited September 16, 2012 by alocispepraluger102

[fasstrack]

To me the guy who shows both sides of the individualist genius/egomaniac is Miles Davis. He was unselfish, fearless, original, and unafraid of tenderness in music. In life and print, unless history got it wrong, he seemed to buy the press or something that he was a god or superhuman-and seemed to think he had the birthright to do, even to himself, and publicly say awful things. And people, musicians included, who 'pedalized' him would follow him anywhere-their own sense of self subsumed by their idol. A drag-for them-that part ain't Miles's fault. The thing I took away, the eye-opener, from an unpleasant encounter w/Woody Shaw I previously mentioned is a great musician isn't always a nice person, or someone to follow beyond the art. I still love the music, made the young, foolish mistake of trying to hang out. That, let alone actually COPYING the bad habits, can be unwise. Take the cream, leave the sour milk. We have to be our own best sifters.

[JSngry]

Coltrane - a truly great man, too often made into an idol instead of a hero once he left the building. But that's not the fault of either the man or the pedestal. It's the fault of the survivors deciding what to do with/about how to proceed afterward.

[fasstrack]

I think Cool Hand Luke said it best when he finally snapped at the guys in the workfarm: 'STOP FEEDIN' OFF ME!!'

[fasstrack]

Yes, the artists sometimes imitate themselves if they run out of gas. At least they are imitating THEMSELVES. I have more respect for a man or woman who grows from within, or anyway a strong foundation, than one who succumbs-whether from boredom or self-conning-to chasing Lorelei trying to catch every new bauble that comes along. The cult-sometimes the cul-de-sac- of the 'new and fresh'. I've seen beautiful gifts mangled forever barking up that tree. Better IMO to have the needle on E and at least be in one's own car.

[JSngry]

Better IMO to have the needle on E and at least be in one's own car.

I would say that depends on what neighborhood you're in...

[fasstrack]

While this discussion has been going on I listened to some wonderful music live-Terry Waldo and the Gotham City Jazz Band-playing for TIPS in an unnamed joint that pays salaries to 'musicians' who IMO couldn't shine their shoes. Anyway, it was so perfect my cup runneth over, time for bed and let it sink in. My favorite in that band is Peter Ecklund on trumpet. He's a poet in a tradition. And tunes? Thought I knew some. Until today (: The thing is I seriously doubt that these guys give a crap if they're 'original', 'modern', or any such nonsense. They're (and the delighted audience) too busy having fun playing music they love.

[A Lark Ascending]

The whole "pedestal" thing..that can go both ways.

I mean, let's take people who have a vision, do the work, leap the hurdles and DO something exceptional with their life, let's take these people and put them on a pedestal and use them as examples of what humans can do with their lives. I got no problem with that. Dreams, role models, inspirational figures, all that stuff is good, and a big part of waht keeps us from settling into an easily/permanently collective state of cloddy muddleheaded servitude. It's one thing to accept that knowing that you have options, quite another to think that that is the only role which you can ever fill in life.

Now, let's NOT place people on the pedestal for the purpose of creating an industry around them, or for glorifying them as being our intrinsic superiors, or for using their achievements to dictate to us what literal form/direction our achievements should take.

Heroes, not idols. That's what I like to see.

The pedestal is benevolent as long as there is always room for more people on it, and as long as rising to it is encouraged. It's not when it is used for a guard station at a maximum security prison. It may well need remodeling, but I don't think it ever needs destroying.

But inspiring people to dream, to act, to work, to more fully know who and what not just who they are but who they can be,hey, I'm ok with that.

Agree with you entirely.

My ideal is someone like the English folk singer/demon guitar player/seeker out of old songs/shape changer Martin Carthy. In the small pond of English folk music he is a true giant; yet when he plays a folk club he makes a point of coming out and listening to the floor singers, in and among the other listeners.

Now I love Keith Jarrett's music and he too is worthy of the highest accolades (well, if you warm to his style); but, oh how different his response. When you read his musings you see he's bought into the Romantic idea of the artist as being outside of normal life and therefore excused from the normal decencies of engagement.

Edited September 17, 2012 by A Lark Ascending

[fasstrack]

No slam on KJ's music, but to me egomaniacs like him and others-so MANY others these days-is what is killing the jazz business. The I'm the shit and you peons are lucky to be here, sit quiet and drink in my genius approach. I'm opposed to it to my marrow. If you think you're better than the paying customers that give you not only a living but spiritual sustenance-b/c audience and performer give EACH OTHER something, then stay home and play into the mirror. Paul Bley (who I've heard KJ got a lot from) made my skin crawl interviewed in a book of Lee Konitz quotes, saying 'FUCK the audience! They're just along for the ride'. OTOH Dizzy Gillespie told an audience 'your applause (meaning I think positive feedback) is food for the artist' Perhaps the answer lies somewhere inbetween-but htmility is in short supply nowadays. I made up a joke: a jazz fan did bad things, so bad that instead of hell he had to spend eternity in a Pullman cabin w/KJ and a guy endlessly crinkling a candy bar wrapper...

[fasstrack]

BTW I found out from the horse's mouth-the guy handing over the cash-that Terry (see earlier post) and his guys, called the Gotham City Jazz Band, DO get paid for that gig! Justice served. I'm taking an angel in my life to hear them Sun. I know she'll have a great time.

[cih]

Depends on the audience, and the performer.. often a mutual antagonism between an artist and an audience is inevitable and essential I believe. “FUCK the audience” can mean different things. If it means a disregard for the expectations of the crowd, that’s one thing - if it means a lack of motivation for producing something of any value, that’s another.