Oscar "Papa" Celestin: New Orleans Jazz Band - Imperial 9199

[jeffcrom]

I have a very interesting copy of this album, and I wanted to get my discographical thoughts about it somewhere on the web - and what better place than here? Most folks here won't be interested in this at all, but again, I wanted this on the record.

Imperial issued three albums credited to Oscar "Papa" Celestin, but they were all recorded after he died in 1954. Celestin was an incredibly popular musician in New Orleans, and his band carried on in his name after he died, with Albert Walters in the trumpet chair.

There is no personnel or recording date on the back cover, but Ruppli's Aladdin/Imperial discography gives the Celestin "ghost" band, with Walters, as the personnel on this album, with the location and date given as "NO?, May 16, 1962 (or c. 1956??). Which means he really doesn't know.

My copy is autographed by eight New Orleans musicians. Here is what they signed:

Albert French banjo mgr.

Alvin Alcorn Trpt

Jeanette Kimball (Piano)

Waldren Joseph Trom

Wendell Eugene (Trombone)

Joseph Thomas (Clarinet)

Stewart Davis (Bass)

Louis Barbarin Drums

This personnel is not that listed in the Ruppli discography. When I bought the album in New Orleans, I didn't think much of that. I figured that some fan brought the album to a gig, and those musicians were the ones that happened to be playing the gig that night. But when I played the album for the first time, I realized that I recognized the playing of some of the signees. What is interesting about the signatures is that they were written with several different pens, as if they were signed at different times. If a fan got them all to sign at the same concert, they probably would have all used the same pen.

One of the tunes is "Mama Don't Allow It," still a popular tune at Preservation Hall. In this song, the singer usually introduces the individual musicians by name before their solos. Here, there are just piano, banjo, and bass solos; the unidentified singer introduces the soloists as "Jeanette," "Albert," and "Stew." That seems to confirm three of the musicians who autographed the album.

The personnel of Imperial LP 9160 (Hongo Fongo by Punch Miller) is nearly the same as the signees of my Celestin album - Waldren "Frog" Joseph is not on the Miller album, and of course Alcorn isn't. A quick comparison confirms that the clarinet on both albums is obviously the same player, so that gives us Joseph "Cornbread" Thomas. The trombonist on most of the tracks of the Celestin album sounds like the same guy as on the Miller album - Wendell Eugene. I'm quite familiar with Frog Joseph's style - he had a unique, staccato approach - and he's definitely the trombonist on "Wabash Blues" (one of Frog's signature numbers) on the Celestin album. Two other tracks, "Slide, Frog, Slide" and "It's You I Love" have two trombones, and Frog is obviously one of them. "Slide, Frog, Slide" is, not surprisingly, a Frog Joseph feature - he recorded it on several other occasions.

There's another surprise on " It's You I Love" - the trumpet soloist is Dave Bartholomew, without a doubt. There's no producer listed, but I imagine that he produced the album as well. The trumpeter on the rest of the tracks certainly sounds like he could be Alvin Alcorn, but I can't say for certain.

So my guess is that the folks who autographed the album are in fact the musicians who play on the album (plus Dave Barthomew on one track). Did someone with inside knowledge of the New Orleans scene and of this album get them to autograph the cover, one at a time, over the course of several gigs?

All of this means something to me, as a lover of New Orleans music. I heard Jeanette Kimball the first time I went to Preservation Hall, in 1990. And I second-lined Frog Joseph's funeral - an amazing experience.

Edited May 6, 2013 by jeffcrom

[John L]

Interesting. The Lord Discography would appear to take its information from Ruppli's discography that you cite above, including the unsure date. It lists personnel as Albert Walters (tp) Eddie Pierson (tb) Joseph Thomas (cl) Octave Crosby (p) Albert French (bj,ldr) Sidney Brown (b) Louis Barbarin (d). But I guess that you have very strong evidence that this is incorrect.

[jeffcrom]

Interesting. The Lord Discography would appear to take its information from Ruppli's discography that you cite above, including the unsure date. It lists personnel as Albert Walters (tp) Eddie Pierson (tb) Joseph Thomas (cl) Octave Crosby (p) Albert French (bj,ldr) Sidney Brown (b) Louis Barbarin (d). But I guess that you have very strong evidence that this is incorrect.

I think that Alvin Alcorn and Wendell Eugene are the only two that I wouldn't bet the bank on. I still think it's them, but I'm not as certain as with the others - Dave Bartholomew, Frog Joseph, and Cornbread Thomas are easily identified aurally, and Jeanette Kimball, Papa French, and Stewart Davis are identified by the singer.

Some of which corresponds to Ruppli & Lord, of course.

[jeffcrom]

And I just thought of a scenario which would explain the autographs:

A jazz fan buys this album, possibly at gig by the Celestin ghost band. As the bandleader, Papa French, is autographing it, the fan asks him who played on the record. French tells him; our fan gets those present to autograph it then, and takes it to another gig or two to get autographs from those who were not regular members of the Celestin band. He never gets Dave Bartholomew's autograph, because if Bartholomew was gigging, it was at the Dew Drop Inn uptown, not in the French Quarter jazz clubs.

It's impossible to know for certain, of course, but this works for me.

[thirdtry]

"New Orleans, The Revival" by Tom Stagg and Charlie Crump also give the date of this session as May 16, 1962.

Personnel listed by them are Alvin Alcorn, Frog Joseph, Joe Thomas, Jeanette Kimball, Albert French, Stewart Davis and Louis Barbarin.

However, it also states that Albert Waters replaces Alcorn and Wendell Eugene joins in on one track: 'It's You I Love'. According to the book the trumpet on that song is Albert Waters.

[jeffcrom]

"New Orleans, The Revival" by Tom Stagg and Charlie Crump also give the date of this session as May 16, 1962.

Personnel listed by them are Alvin Alcorn, Frog Joseph, Joe Thomas, Jeanette Kimball, Albert French, Stewart Davis and Louis Barbarin.

However, it also states that Albert Waters replaces Alcorn and Wendell Eugene joins in on one track: 'It's You I Love'. According to the book the trumpet on that song is Albert Waters.

Wow - thanks for the info; I don't have that book.

I'll listen again to "It's You I Love," but to my ears, Dave Bartholomew is pretty unmistakable on that track; his style jumped out at me the first time I played the record several years ago. I'll also listen again to try to pin down which trombonist is on which track, but Stagg and Crump can't be totally correct about that - there are definitely two trombones on "Slide, Frog, Slide" and "It's You I Love."

[jeffcrom]

Just listened to "It's You I love" again after listening to several recordings featuring Albert Walters. Granting that the discographical world is full of folks who think that their opinion is right, and that I've been wrong with my aural identifications before at times....

Dave Bartholomew is the trumpet soloist on that tune - 100% sure, bet the bank, no doubt.

I did what I didn't think to do last night - look at the composer credits. It's credited to Bartholomew-Domino. I imagine that he took the opportunity as producer to slip in one of his songs, and wail on it.

It's hard to tell, but it's possible that there are two trumpets on that track. All the trumpet notes could have been played by one person - I never hear two trumpet notes at once - but there are some odd-sounding notes answering the phrases of the melody that could be by a second player. My copy is mono, so it's not easy to tell. But in any case, the solo is by Bartholomew.