The British Jazz Tea Party

[P.D.]

I'm from England.. been listening to Jazz for a loooooong time. A big part of the reason I'm in America is that when I got the chance to come I took it, figured I'd get to see and maybe meet my heroes. Two years would be enough but I got the American habit.. got into debt, couldn't afford to go back That was 30 some years ago.

Growing up in England and getting into this music was an intense experience. I didn't have much money, LPs were just on the horizon. Most of my early purchases were 78's.. Was talking about this a dinner the other night, and fell off the chair laughing when my 24 year old daughter said " Dad what's a 78? "

When Lps came out they were 10" only ...my first was a Bechet Feetwarmers.. Had to save for a month or more to buy one.. so by the time I got a new one I knew the old one by heart. To some extent I miss those days.. you rally got to Know a record when you could only get one per month... maybe two at Christmas if my sister was kind.

The bad thing about this is that I wouldn't buy British Jazz records.. I supported them in clubs and concerts, but on record I wanted the "real " thing.. American Jazz, the Legends.. Hell I thought any record with less than 5 or 6 musicians was a bad purchase... less talent for the money.

Now years later, wiser and richer, I have guilt complexes.. I buy and Support and seek out British Jazz, and try to promote it whenever I can, hence the reason for this thread.

Britain has not produced a musician who has influenced Jazz to the extent of the important Americans.. but there has been, and are, some damned good music being, and been, made... we had/ and have. our stars.

I was pleasantly surprised that on the BNBB some British musicians were very well received.. so to exorcise my childhood guilt.. we have this tea party

there's more to British, and European Jazz than Tubby Hayes. I'm good on it up to about the 70's.. Bev if he's here. plus others can take you further...

Lets see where we go, I really would like to hip the mouldy' er Figs to British equivalents of Condon and Clayton, and hear from Bev and co on the wider British / European advances over the years.

No Posts.. hell I'll keep it surfacing.. it's guilt you know

Edited March 10, 2003 by P.D.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Yorkshire's own John McLaughlin and Allan Holdsworth are two who have had huge influence on guitar playing over the past 30-some years.

That Miles Davis would hire McLaughlin and Dave Holland (when they were basically unknown too) speaks a lot for their importance. Both have continued to be on the cutting edge of jazz, internationally speaking.

Mike

[pepe]

England also has fostered John Surman - IMO one of the greatest barytone saxophonists in jazz ever. I've followed his career since I heard him on an early Mike Westbrook record called Release, where he soloes all over the horn. If Surman had lived in the US he'd be an established "star" (jazzwise, that is).

[BERIGAN]

Jeez, this isn't going to turn into a top 10 British jazzmen thread is it???

I think Nat Gonella, is not given much thought, which really is a shame!I have a cd called, I can't Dance, from the huge label Object enterprises(Anyone know anything about them?) anyway, his singing may not be quite Wingy Manone, Louis Prima quality (Not that they were Crosby quality themselves) but I really like his trumpet playing! The groups always swing, a fellow BN'er was kind enough to burn me another disc, and I am getting a cheap 2 cd import from tower for my B-day....so I like him in other words!

[P.D.]

I kind of avoided Gonella, in my if its not American, its not real jazz days. I remeber him on the radio though, and interestingly enough he's on my list .He was indeed one of the early British hero's though...A disc you might like, I mentioned over at Blue Note, maybe you missed it...

BLACK BRITISH SWING

Topic TSCD781

24 tracks recorded in the 30's 40's

The main participants are more or less from Jamacia. The musio is styled as you wuokld expect from the title, after America big bands, though more the Ellington stle tan Goodman etc.

The gus were good musicians, Leslie " Jiver " Hutchinson, Ken " Snakehips' Johnson etc.. I guess you had to have a hip name to sell your music in England at the time. I had necer heard these people, they were gone before I got into Jazz, but I remember my dad talking about Snakehips.. My dad really wasn;t into jazz. Just trying to do the fatherly relating thing.

But I came across this disc in my wandering and picked it up remebering my dads conversation.

I was really surprised.. no it's not Ellington, but it stands up well to American Jazz of the same period.

Its not all Big Band either, some piano centered trios, quartets etc.

All in all an interesting CD for British Jazz enthusiasts with broad ranging taste, or people wanting a sense of Jazz history

In some respects it's far more rewarding than a lot of the Trad jazz that dominated the British scene 50 throufh 60

[P.D.]

Pepe, Westbrroks two first sets were very highly regarded when they came out.

Both were recently re issued on the Redial Label

Release

Cellebration

and his anti war suite ...Marching Song

Redial went under but these CDs are still in some stores inventory

All three are worth the effort.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I have all three of those Westbrook CDs issued by Deram (London/PolyGram/Universal) probably bought within the past two years or so - are the Redial issues older or newer?

Mike

[P.D.]

I stand corrected Mike, you are right they are on DERAM,, so should be available.. I was in a Redial buying phase at about the time I got them .. thought they all came from the same place.

[Bataki]

Hey P.D., your little dissertation about jazz in England interested me a lot. England makes me immediately think of Ronnie Scott’s club in London. During the 1960’s, Ronnie Scott’s in London at Frith Street, Montmartre in Copenhagen and The Golden Circle in Stockholm at Sveavägen constituated the great triangle of jazz performance in Europe (maybe I have to duck now for things thrown at me from Brownie, not mentioning Paris!, but Brownie, all of us remember Blue Note, Caveau de Huchette et al. ). Anyway, I myself travelled like a shuttle between the Golden Circle and Montmartre, but alas I never came to Ronnie Scott’s. Well, anybody who has something interesting to say about these three jazz places of the 1960’s mentioned above, just shoot, please!

Stefan

[David Williams]

I supported them in clubs and concerts, but on record I wanted the "real " thing.. American Jazz, the Legends.

This used to apply to me as well, must admit. My excuse was that I got into jazz just as I was moving out of London (a couple more years and I'd of had to have been dragged away), and ended up in a place which didn't seem to have a local scene, no internet, limited press exposure for British artists, etc.... certainly nobody to talk to about jazz (sob... I thought I was a freak). I've been rectifying the situation to a certain extent over the last 7 or 8 years.

The British player who has really caught my ear recently, though, is Evan Parker - I don't mean to mention him as a candidate for a British Top 10, but because he seems to be doing something genuinely original, and maybe internationally influential (and I'm not really qualified to make a statement like that, so feel free to argue). It's led me up a completely new tributary - very very exciting - and I was chuffed to pieces at the number of people who responded to my EP thread at the old place.

Trio AAB, from Scotland, on the Caber label, have also set my pulse racing recently. Haven't picked up their new one yet, but their previous, Ornettish-yet-somehow-Celtic CD, Wherever I Lay My Home... was the business.

Edited March 10, 2003 by David Williams

[P.D.]

Bataki.. I left England before Scotts was really a big Place. I was born and Lived in Newcastle Upon Tyne. that's why I'm a big supporter of the Carr brothers.. didn't get to London much. First time I ever got on a Plane was to come to America. The Big club in London when I did go there was The 100 club, but it dwindled as the years went by, turned into a Rock venue I think

One year on a return trip to England, about 24 years ago now, I know because thats how old my daughter is, My wife And I stopped off in Amsterdam and Copenhagen before going to Newcastle We went to the Montmarte.. Think it was Donald Byrd that night. I remember it as a big hall with a very high stage for the musicians. My wife is not really into Jazz, and Byrd didn't seem on.. sometimes being with other enthusiastic listeners helps the evening.

I prefer my jazz clubs to be smaller cozy joints, probably beacause the one we had in Newcastle was like that.

After I left Newcastle, the Guy who became Sting used to play the bass there.

[P.D.]

David.. didn't set this up as a top 10 place. I actually hate ranking musicians.. used to get on at Marvin over at the other place for that...BTW I hope he is here.. not to battle with, just to be part of the group.

I just wanted to try to keep references to European Jazz together. Hope Bev comes in with some of his posts. I tend still to favor Music more up to the types found on the recent Impressed CD.. but I listen to everything..curiosity and a bit more cash than I had in England helps me do that. So input from people like you and Bev is good for me....BTW once I start a thread I don't think it's my personal property.. so I don't get offended whichever way it goes.

[David Williams]

Apart from some Stan Tracey, I'm almost completely ignorant of any pre-80's British jazz. The Impressed LP is an eye-opener, and no mistake.

[P.D.]

With a little bit of luck.. and a bunch of sales we might get more

Have you heard Ronnie Scotts Serious Gold? Probably the high spot of his recording career.. again only ever issued once, never on CD.. It's amazing that this situation exists. Granted the British expansion into Rock overwhelmed the record companies... but there's a lot of good music still locked up, of which the Peterson CD is a good representation.

Edited March 11, 2003 by P.D.

[JSngry]

Going back a ways (and BTW - agreed, SERIOUS GOLD is very good indeed), how are Ray Noble's orchestra sides? I know that his was a "dance band", but anybody who could write "Cherokee" & "The Very Tought Of You" obviously had a bit on the ball harmonically, and I'm wondering if his dance band sides were of any particular distinction within that genre?

Bonus question (in search of an answer) - Did Noble write any other "standards" besides those two, or, for that matter, any other particularly distinctive songs that an inquisitive songhunter might be delighted to dis/un-cover?

[JSngry]

I think I know (most of) that one. It's a good song, if a bit more "traditional".

Thanks for that tip!

[David Williams]

Have you heard Ronnie Scotts Serious Gold?

Unfortunately not. It seems to have acquired legendary status.

[Bataki]

P.D.... Decca issued last year (Decca 470 271-2) "TOGETHER" — British Jazz Legends: Kenny Ball, Acker Bilk, John Chilton and the Feetwarmers, John Dankworth, Humphrey Lyttelton, Don Lusher and George Melly. Go to this address for more information:

British Jazz Legends

[P.D.]

Thanks for the link... I saw this advertised and wondered about it. I'll probably end up with it, though Ball and Bilk worry me a bit. Though Bilk redeemed himself, somewhat, on a recent duet album with Wally Fawkes, and a couple of earlier releases with Humph. Kenny Ball though... he can play the trumpet... but his output seems to ve remained in the TRAD, rather than traditional category..

Have you heard it?

[Bataki]

British Jazz Legends ..... sorry, I haven't heard it. It was Johnny Dankworth's name that caught my eye when I browsed through records in a shop. Being an alto player myself, I'm always on the lookout for records with my old alto favourites, and Dankworth is one of them. His big bands has also always interested me. I think I heard one of them on a record for the first time when I was about 15, i.e. in the 1950's sometime, and I liked it very much. In fact, here in Sweden, Dankworth is mostly known as a very skilled arranger and leader of big bands, but not so much for his own alto playing. I myself though, think he is one of Europe's best alto sax players of all times.

How about you?

[P.D.]

Bataki, if you were listening to Dankworth inthe 50's, age 15... you and I must around the same age group... maybe that's why we like / listen to these people

I agree that Dankworth was important to British Jazz, hard pressed to come up with another modern Jazz alto from that era that made a ripple in the jazz firmament... Bruce Turner???

Dankworth really was the only true British Jazz big band , in some respects. Heath's band in the 50's was good, perhaps not as daring as Dankworth, but Heath seemed to drift off into Eay Listening territory

I'm not a great admirer of Cleo Laine... her diction to me seeems to be overly "correct" English.. makes m feel uncomfortable to some extent. I wish Dankworth hadn't more or less devoted the last umpteen years to supporting her career... maybe British Jaz might have been all the richer for it.

[shawn·m]

I’m definitely a EmCee Five fan. Carr and Cox played off of each other so beautifully that I wonder what the group would have developed into, had they stayed together more than a couple years. And since their collective direction seemed to come more out of the ’50s than the early ’60s, I get the sense their recordings represented a starting point and were a work-in-progress. Stephenson was a joy, too. He had a touch of that Blakey thing that helped make each song its own animal.

I just wish EmCee Five had recorded more.

Edited March 12, 2003 by kartoffel·hadi blues

[Bataki]

P.D....your'e right old man , I'm 60. Talking about big bands in Europe, there was the Harry Arnold Swedish Radio Studio Orchestra, where sometimes such guys as Quincy Jones, Coleman Hawkins, Benny Bailey, Lucky Thompson, Conte Candoli, Flip Phillips et al. took part together with Swedish stars like the alto players Arne Domnérus and Rolf Billberg.

Have you ever heard about or listened to Rolf Billberg (1930-1966)? He was one of the most gifted jazz musicians there ever was, brought up in the Tristano-Konitz tradition, but with a definite jazz dialect of his own (Konitz' words), so naturally had a good time playing and recording together with soul mates like Lars Gullin, Jan Allan and Nils Lindberg for instance. Here is a link to a site where you can listen to four examples of Billberg's playing from his time in Denmark during the 50's and the 60'. The intro page starts with music, and the other examples are on the link page:

Rolf Billberg

If you ask me, this saxophonist contributed more to jazz during his very short life, than many do under a whole lifetime.

During my time at the BNBB I was often amazed by the great knowledge of Swedish jazz or jazz musicians some people displayed in discussions, for instance about Lars Gullin. So, I have vague plans of starting a topic about Swedish jazz or about some great guys like Gullin. What do you think about that?

[P.D.]

well Gullin is one of the few that I have heard of. I rember seeing reviews of records by him yn the Melody Maker when it was almost 100% a weekly Jazz newspaper ( sorry guys two O.F's talking) remember it got good reviews but really did get any Gullin til I came across across a cd a while back.. So I'm all for learning about people I haven't heard . past and present. I'm sure others are too.... It's an International board

I'll check out the link on Billberg... never seen that name before.

[SEK]

I'm a big fan of saxophonist Trevor Watts. My favorite recordings with him are "Innovation" with his Amalgam ensemble, "Prayer for Peace", and the recordings of his Moiré Music ensembles, including "A Wider Embrace" on ECM.

My interested in British jazz began with the invigorating influx into England, during the '60s and '70s, of South African musicians Johnny Dyani, Mongezi Feza, Chris McGregor, Louis Moholo, Dudu Pukwana, Harry Miller, and many others. I branched out from there.

The prominence of John McLaughlin and Dave Holland with Miles Davis also enhanced my appreciation of British jazz.