The joy of knowing the Chords

[Joe G]

I think this particular thread will apply to any tune that has a similar chord in a similar position. That is why I offered the theoretic info. And I think you guys are right in your appllication if the dom7 is used. To me the easy way around that for the soloist is to avoid using a 7th of any kind at that point. A pentatonic or a blues scale both fit well over either chord. The duraction of the chord is so short anyway. What do you think??

That's exactly what I think.

[Free For All]

Bruce-

To respond to several of your points-

First, regarding the issue of people being "overly sensitive"- understand that it is often easy to be misunderstood when communicating in this manner (on an internet bb). Often remarks intended to be humorous or a little sarcastic can be misinterpreted. Fortunately the use of the "smilies" help clarify intent.

As one of the "others" you were responding to regarding the Bb chord quality issue-

I think that the first thing you must realize, and the point I was trying to communicate, is that there is a lot of room for interpretation regarding jazz harmony nomenclature. It's hard to classify some of these guidelines as "always" or "never". I do agree with you that "Bb" alone as a chord symbol is most likely to imply the use of a maj. 6th or 7th. Technically it indicates a major triad only, with no 6th or 7th at all, but to make it more appropriate to jazz harmony we tend to automatically add extensions like 7ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths. BTW, Bb and Bb7 are both major tonalities- the term "major tonality" refers to the triad type (which in both cases is major) and not the seventh. That's just from my experience.

Also, I would hate to have to resort to avoiding the seventh as a soloist- IMHO, it would be like having to talk with using the letter "s" or something like that. Sure, it's of such short duration that it's not a big deal, but I don't feel the solution is to avoid it altogether. And regarding your comment about "risking ridicule", that's exactly what many of the great innovators in jazz did!!!. My feeling is if you do something harmonically adventuresome in an appropriate melodic or rhythmic context (and do it with conviction) you can often go against the grain regarding the accepted "rules of engagement".

I'm also curious- you said the "original" key for Rainy Day is G concert. I never realized that- what's your source for that?

I agree with most of what you say. You seem, however, to be a little inflexible at times though when you make declamatory statements like "BUT THAT IS NOW WHAT Bb by itself means". We all learn to interpret these things through our own varied experience so there is bound to be some variation in interpretation. For my part, I don't consider all of what I know about jazz harmony to be "carved in stone" or anything.

And finally I'm not at all bored by this! I'm always up for talking a little theory, especially since it's such a subjective issue.

Edited September 26, 2004 by Free For All

[j lee]

Sounds good to me! (I'm responding to Bruce's post here -- I'll need some more time, Free for All, to digest your great post -- but, yes, even as just a blues/R&B guy with a yen for jazz, I'll be the first to agree that the discussion is really really interesting as far as theory is concerned).

Edited September 26, 2004 by j lee

[Joe G]

Didn't he mean to write "that is not what Bb by itself means"?

[Free For All]

I think you're right Joe. That certainly changes the tone of that sentence.

My bad if I misunderstood!

EDIT: See what I meant about being misunderstood?

Edited September 26, 2004 by Free For All

[BruceW]

Bruce-

To respond to several of your points-...

I do agree with you that "Bb" alone as a chord symbol is most likely to imply the use of a maj. 6th or 7th. Technically it indicates a major triad only, with no 6th or 7th at all, but to make it more appropriate to jazz harmony we tend to automatically add extensions like 7ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths. BTW, Bb and Bb7 are both major tonalities- the term "major tonality" refers to the triad type (which in both cases is major) and not the seventh. That's just from my experience. ...

And regarding your comment about "risking ridicule", that's exactly what many of the great innovators in jazz did!!!...

I agree with most of what you say. You seem, however, to be a little inflexible at times...

Yeah, I think I did say the triad also in my statement. I agree with your statements about extensions, I think that is what started this whole thread.

Yes the Bb and Bb7 are both major tonalities. However, in regards to its usage at the beginning of Oleo, Bb implies a maj triad, maj 6, 6/9 or maj7th or maj9th or maj#11th or maj 13 th chord. The Bb7 can imply a I7 chord but that is not what we have been talking about. A I7 is fine if it is indicated by Bb7, but it has not been indicated, a mere Bb was. However, like I said, if the Bb7 has been sounding great, so be it. I really think players' choice has crept in. That's okay, I just feel it is just as wrong to set that in stone also when theory dictates otherwise. Remember this tune was written by a master. Sonny starts his St. Thomas with a C and I have never heard or heard of anyone starting it with a Cdom7. Appreciate any comments.

Then again maybe I haven't been around enough.

The comment about "risking ridicule" was not mine, I don't know whose it was.

I agree about the innovators doing just that.

You are right, I do become a little inflexible at times. BUT I love this thread and I appreciate everyone who jumps in and really voices an opinion.

Keep making music

B-)

Bruce

[Free For All]

However, in regards to its usage at the beginning of Oleo, Bb implies a maj triad, maj 6, 6/9 or maj7th or maj9th or maj#11th or maj 13 th chord. 

OK, then I have one further question-

In what way does the head to Oleo imply ANY type of seventh on the tonic chord? The notes in the tune are Bb, G and C (no 7ths) so based on that info alone any type of tonic chord could be used. Now what Sonny plays over that bar will determine the chord quality as far as I'm concerned. And he might not play it the same way on subsequent choruses.

One interesting thing, however, about using this particular progression in the first two bars.......

BbMAJ7 G7(b9) / C-7 F7(b9)

......is that it implies a nice guide tone* line (A,Ab,G,F#) that is the type of motive that Sonny likes to exploit. One could also use the guide tones C,B, Bb and A, and even combine those two sets (A-C, Ab-Cb, G-Bb and F#-A). You could then add a third guide tone set (E,Eb,D,C#) to create a chromatic sequence of triads to play over those two bars:

A-C-E, Ab-Cb-Eb, G-Bb-D, F#-A-C#. Sonny plays the shit out of sequences like these!

I hope that made sense. It's one of those things that makes sense aurally but is a little more complicated to explain.

*guide tones- chord tones that create a melodic (often chromatic) outline of the changes when played in succession. I figure you know what I'm talking about already, but some people used a different term than "guide tones".

Edited September 26, 2004 by Free For All

[Organfreak]

I'm also curious- you said the "original" key for Rainy Day is G concert. I never realized that- what's your source for that?

While I can't prove it, it has always been my understanding that such is true. I believe that is the key in the Real Book. And now, presenting the first two minutes of my private tape of Groove Holmes playing the tune (live in Seattle, 1981)! Once he starts soloing, you won't believe it!

Unfortunately, all I have is an old Real Audio file. If you have Real Audio and it asks to d/l a codec to play the file, just allow it. (Ironic that it needs a new codec to play an old-style file!) This is low quality sound, but you can sure hear it.

The funky bass you hear is part of an add-on to the organ; what's called a Nova Bass is hooked-up to the lower manual, plus an envelope follower stomp-box is inline with the lower manual.

Clickolate your thang here!

-OF

[Organfreak]

In what way does the head to Oleo imply ANY type of seventh on the tonic chord? The notes in the tune are Bb, G and C (no 7ths) so based on that info alone any type of tonic chord could be used.

It doesn't, but the fact remains that Bb7 is the chord that everybody plays on "Oleo!" Do I HAFTA use these emoticons?! OK...

-Scott "This is a recording" Organfreak

[Free For All]

I noticed it's also in the Sher Music "New Real Book" in G, so I expect you guys are right and that is the original key. I still like to play the first chord as minor, though!

[Jim Alfredson]

Man.... Groove was a bad mofo. I wish I could've seen him live. My dad saw him at the old Tropicana here in Lansing back in the 70s when he had a week-long stint. My dad said he came and saw him every night and just couldn't get enough. He also said the Hammond he played looked like beavers had gnawed on it.

Thanks for posting that.

[Organfreak]

I noticed it's also in the Sher Music "New Real Book" in G, so I expect you guys are right and that is the original key. I still like to play the first chord as minor, though!

Check out Groove Holmes' version that I posted, that is if you can play Real Owdio. He plays Gmaj7th. It's kinda like

-OF

[Organfreak]

Man.... Groove was a bad mofo.  I wish I could've seen him live.  My dad saw him at the old Tropicana here in Lansing back in the 70s when he had a week-long stint.  My dad said he came and saw him every night and just couldn't get enough.  He also said the Hammond he played looked like beavers had gnawed on it.

Thanks for posting that.

Happy to spread it, man! I maintain a site that's full of these recordings, although that one isn't on it right now. The actual site is NOT at organfreak.com, so don't bother looking for an index page there. It's at

The Groove Holmes Clips

After a certain number of downloads, it will shut down for the day-- try again.

When I recorded this stuff, Groove was here for two separate two-week gigs! It was absolutely stunning, especially considering he had McDuff's old drummer, Joe Dukes, with him. I have never heard such music in my life, especially on any record. My jaw hit the floor and stayed there for two weeks.

Yes, he brought his own organ, since it was customized (no Leslies!) and it was beat to hell. It rocked when he played, and he was so big he made it look like Schroeder playing his toy piano.

While extremely bitter about his feeling that he had been denied the same opportunities as Jimmy Smith, Groove was one of the sweetest ppl who ever lived, and was totally generous in letting me record, no questions asked.

-OF

[BruceW]

One interesting thing, however, about using this particular progression in the first two bars.......

BbMAJ7 G7(b9) / C-7 F7(b9)

......is that it implies a nice guide tone* line (A,Ab,G,F#) that is the type of motive that Sonny likes to exploit. One could also use the guide tones C,B, Bb and A, and even combine those two sets (A-C, Ab-Cb, G-Bb and F#-A). You could then add a third guide tone set (E,Eb,D,C#) to create a chromatic sequence of triads to play over those two bars:

A-C-E, Ab-Cb-Eb, G-Bb-D, F#-A-C#. Sonny plays the shit out of sequences like these!

I hope that made sense. It's one of those things that makes sense aurally but is a little more complicated to explain.

FreeForAll

Man, you really know your stuff. I understand exactly what you just described. Its heavy!!! That's why I like this bb. B-)

Bruce

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes, he brought his own organ, since it was customized (no Leslies!) and it was beat to hell. It rocked when he played, and he was so big he made it look like Schroeder playing his toy piano.

Mine does that, too. The poor B3's were not made to be hauled around from gig to gig and their little spindle legs start getting loose. The screws on the front right leg of mine are mostly stripped out. I need to do some serious maintenance on the ol' girl.

I'd love to find a C3 to haul around and open up the back and sides. They are much more sturdy. Although people don't recognize them as well as the B3.

[Organfreak]

I'd love to find a C3 to haul around and open up the back and sides.  They are much more sturdy.  Although people don't recognize them as well as the B3.

I do use a C-3 with the back cut away. I have left the sides intact; even though I have been assured that it would still be strong if I cut the sides away, I'm chicken to do that. This is the organ that was used for many rentals: Both Smiths, McDuff, McGriff, Joey, etc. They love it! It's loud and clear and has honkin' bass, adjustable chorus and percussion, and Trek-II reverb.

I'm kinda surprised nobody has commented on the rest of the Groove Holmes clips. Plenty of hits though.

-OF

[BruceW]

I'm kinda surprised nobody has commented on the rest of the Groove Holmes clips. Plenty of hits though.

Wait no more,

I listend to all of those clips a little while ago and was blown away by Groove and his drummer Joe Dukes. Man, that cat was strong. His groove is the greatest and it is a damn shame he got blackballed. This cat should have been as large as Jimmy SMith, well... maybe just a tad less. Jimmy was The Man. (period)

Thanks for the link to those clips. I just love the B3 and I hope you guys do not take offense, but I am a vibe player and I adore the Deagan Aurora the same way you guys adore the B3.

Keep playing music

B-)

Bruce

[Organfreak]

I listened to all of those clips a little while ago and was blown away by Groove and his drummer Joe Dukes. Man, that cat was strong. His groove is the greatest and it is a damn shame he got blackballed. This cat should have been as large as Jimmy SMith, well... maybe just a tad less. Jimmy was The Man. (period)

Thanks for the link to those clips. I just love the B3 and I hope you guys do not take offense, but I am a vibe player and I adore the Deagan Aurora the same way you guys adore the B3.

Keep playing music

B-)

Bruce

Glad you see it the way I do. Groove was a monster, which isn't readily apparent from listening to his records. Putting him and Dukes together had a symbiotic effect that made them both stronger.

Man, I love vibes. How could anyone take offense at them?

-OF

[Jim Alfredson]

Scott, have you heard the Gerald Wilson Mosaic boxset? They include all his records for Pacific Jazz and he did one or two records with Groove and the big band. This is a few years before Jimmy Smith did the Verve/big band thing. Groove is even kickin' bass pedals on some of the stuff WITH the big band. It's very cool!

[BruceW]

Hey guys,

We all know Groove got blacklisted for awhile, but does anybody know what actually happened to cause that drastic action???? How long did it actually last????

Keep making music

B-)

Bruce

[Joe G]

Start up a Groove thread guys!