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When you describe Kid Thomas' playing as pre-Armstrong are you thinking in terms of his rhythmic approach? The music here overall is primitive (in the best sense of the term).

Yes, I mean rhythm, but also just about any other aspect of Thomas' playing you can name. Crude tone, not interested in solo playing, harmonically unsophisticated, etc. (And I use all of these terms as descriptions, not criticisms.) Kid Thomas sounds completely untouched by Armstrong, and that's pretty unusual for trumpet player who didn't record until 1952.

Thanks Jeff. Yeah, that describes his playing all right. Gritty, plowing straight ahead, staying right on the rhythm. It's quite beautiful in its own way. So glad you brought this one up.

Digging into the recesses of my blog....

BillRussellHEAD.jpg

Recall reading this a while ago. Thanks Chris!

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AMCD-75 New Orleans 1946, inc.

* Original Zenith Brass Band

* Eclipse Alley Five

* Avery-Tillman Five

Worth it for Baby Dodds' snare drum on the Original Zenith session (Feb 26, 1946); if only Irv Cottrell could hear us now!

The Eclipse Alley session with vocals from the next is likewise insane; let the Berenice Phillips fantasies begin.

Anyone know what beer Jim Robinson is drinking on the back cover of the cd booklet?

And who is "Dude" Lewis (tpt)?

http://www.amazon.com/Zenith-Brass-Band-Avery-Tillman/dp/B000001YIN

AMCD-51 John Handy The Very First Recordings

July 1960 sessions, the first co-recorded by Bill Russell himself.

"Joe Sheep's Boogie Woogie" b/w "Hindustan" shoulda been a single!

http://www.amazon.com/Very-First-Recordings-John-Handy/dp/B000001YIA

***

Chris Albertson-- how did you and/or Bill Grauer get the use of Ralston Crawford's photographs? Were you aware of his work in N.O. previously or did you meet on that trip?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Many thanks for this thread and its contributors. Made me realise (again) how much I love this music and how much of it I have lying around the place. It's been rattling the windows for the past few weeks!

Have ordered the Nelson/Luthjens and Wooden Joe discs. I confess to being blinded by the Penguins' lukewarm appraisal to the significance of these discs, so it's been good to be presented with a different perspective.

I've also been digging on the disc that comes with the American Music book. Jeff's right - it's a you-beaut sampler.

If I had to choose just one it would probably be Bunk's King Of The Blues, though I also love the others I have by him - 1944/45, Bunk's Brass Band and the Deccas on Document.

I have the Kid Thomas First Recordings set and like it a lot; less so The Dancehall Years. Too shambolic even for me!

George Lewis Trios & Bands is ace, but don't have much time at all for Jam Session. For some reason I can't remember, I ended up with Volume 4 of the Oxford series - it's fantastic 'cept for a dragging Tin Roof Blues. On GHB, the George Lewis/Kid Thomas Ragtime Stompers - famously crowned by the Penguins - is indeed fabbo, despite short and predictable playlist. Great sound on this one - stereo even!

The George Lewis With Red Allen/Circle Recordings disc is a good 'un, too, even if Red only plays on some of the cuts. The rest have Alvin Alcorn on trumpet.

Another thumbs up here for the double disc the 6 & 7/8s String Band double CD - different and charming.

One of my fave AM albums is AMCD-9 - 1949 by Herb Morand. First 11 cuts feature Albert Burbank, Louis Nelson, St Cyr. Final four tracks are live from a camp at Lake Ponchartrain. Fabulous! Haven't heard the subsequent Morand CD, shared with Paul Barbarin.

An odd one: AMCD-14 - The John Reid Collection. Bechet on piano, Peter Bocage, Alphonse Picou, Louis Keppard. And a St Louis Blues from 1942 by Burnell Santiago.

AMCD-68 features Punch Miller (trumpet) and Louis Gallaud (piano). I wheel this out every year or so, just to confirm there are limits even for me. Jeff? What say you? :)

A special mention for two non-AM albums:

Jazzology 1 - Parenti, Wild Bill, Jimmy Archey, Art Hodes, Pops Foster, Arthur Trappier - is obviously in a different style, but it's a fantastic session anyway. Though this is one of those reissues on which the many extra alt takes seriously are not needed or wanted.

Likewise in a different style is Jazzology 82 - The Jazz Record Story, featuring Hodes in a variety of settings with the likes of George Brunies, Foster and Dodds. Recommended!

I should add that there are weaker tracks on all or most of these CDs - alternate takes that are sloppy, or takes when Bunk was drunk or pissed off. But don't let those distract you from the best tracks.

I endorse this statement. Buyer beware. :crazy:

Edited by kenny weir
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Jeff, anyone? What's the biz with this new release on Fess Manetta CD? From what I've found - at Worlds Records - it's mostly from 1957. Worth getting?

http://www.jazzology.com/item_detail.php?id=AMCD-122

I just got my copy of the latest copy of JazzBeat, which is Jazzology's magazine/newsletter/catalog, and all I can tell you is that I am definitely getting the Fess Manetta CD. He was an extremely important musician/teacher in New Orleans. The late jazz historian Richard Allen took trombone lessons from Fess, and in my conversations with Dick, he spoke of Manetta with the utmost respect. That being said, I don't expect to be knocked out by the music - it's just a feeling I have. If the album was really amazing, it would probably have been reissued before now, or bootlegged by someone. But I've got to have it, just to see for myself.

I have the Kid Thomas First Recordings set and like it a lot; less so The Dancehall Years. Too shambolic even for me!

I totally understand your reaction. But I love The Dancehall Years, partly because it's not a "jazz" recording - it's just a raw New Orleans band playing for dancers.

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I just got my copy of the latest copy of JazzBeat, which is Jazzology's magazine/newsletter/catalog, and all I can tell you is that I am definitely getting the Fess Manetta CD. He was an extremely important musician/teacher in New Orleans. The late jazz historian Richard Allen took trombone lessons from Fess, and in my conversations with Dick, he spoke of Manetta with the utmost respect. That being said, I don't expect to be knocked out by the music - it's just a feeling I have. If the album was really amazing, it would probably have been reissued before now, or bootlegged by someone. But I've got to have it, just to see for myself.

Reading between what lines I've found, that's pretty much what I figured, too.

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Thanks much, Jeff. I have 11 American Musics and would certainly suggest AMCD-3 Bunk Johnson - 1944 for the Best Of list. Kid Shots sounds so bright and energetic on the 1944 George Lewis CD that it's a shame there isn't more of him on record.

As a generalization, the Bunk Johnson recording sessions for American Music and elsewhere produced far, far better Bunk than the concert and broadcast recordings. Even though the concerts etc. included people like Bechet, James P. Johnson, Kid Ory.

Chris, thanks for the Bill Russell article. He and GHB are more people with saintly qualities.

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Thanks much, Jeff. I have 11 American Musics and would certainly suggest AMCD-3 Bunk Johnson - 1944 for the Best Of list. ...

Thanks for pointing that one out. First mention of it here, it seems. Curious enough that I just went ahead and placed an order. Will be interested if Jeff, or others, weigh in though.

:w

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so far I have: Yellow-- two George Lewis you mention, Bunk Plays Popular and Blue-- Bunk + Leadbelly, Mutt Carey + Hociel Thomas & Lee Collins + Chippie Hill (both women in shockingly strong voice), and Bunk + Don Ewell.

Bunk and Leadbelly.

At New York Town Hall 1947

How is this?

21H8WZG45XL._SL500_SL135_.jpg

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Jeff, seems like you may want to revise your expectations of the Manetta disc upwards.

From Allen Lowe's That Devilin' Tune:

In 1957, New Orleans jazz historian/resuscitator William Russell recorded Fess Manetta, a multi-instrumentalist teacher who had played solo piano in various New Orleans habitats as early as 1908. It's possible that Manetta had undergone vast stylistic changes in the passing years, but not likely from the sound of it. On this 1957 session he appears like another piece of the jazz puzzle, another mark on the time line of jazz piano that runs through New Orleans, the Midwest, and toward New York City (and that includes unrecorded musicians like Jelly Roll Morton's mentor Tony Jackson).

Though the passage of time leading up to this recording keeps us from jumping to any inflexible conclusions, Manetta's playing has great credibility. Less subtle and sophisticated than Morton's, it is probably more stylistically typical of the early New Orleans pianists, with a thumping left hand that acts as its own primitive rhythm section. Harmonically straightforward, it has the natural dissonance of occasional musical error, of the misplaced interval within a style driven as much by rhythm as by tonality. Manetta moves from rags to rag-like standards to old time tunes with a whorehouse flair, all the while keeping an entertainer's pace, as though customers are filing in behind him.

Edited by kenny weir
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Jeff, seems like you may want to revise your expectations of the Manetta disc upwards.

From Allen Lowe's That Devilin' Tune:

In 1957, New Orleans jazz historian/resuscitator William Russell recorded Fess Manetta, a multi-instrumentalist teacher who had played solo piano in various New Orleans habitats as early as 1908. It's possible that Manetta had undergone vast stylistic changes in the passing years, but not likely from the sound of it. On this 1957 session he appears like another piece of the jazz puzzle, another mark on the time line of jazz piano that runs through New Orleans, the Midwest, and toward New York City (and that includes unrecorded musicians like Jelly Roll Morton's mentor Tony Jackson).

Though the passage of time leading up to this recording keeps us from jumping to any inflexible conclusions, Manetta's playing has great credibility. Less subtle and sophisticated than Morton's, it is probably more stylistically typical of the early New Orleans pianists, with a thumping left hand that acts as its own primitive rhythm section. Harmonically straightforward, it has the natural dissonance of occasional musical error, of the misplaced interval within a style driven as much by rhythm as by tonality. Manetta moves from rags to rag-like standards to old time tunes with a whorehouse flair, all the while keeping an entertainer's pace, as though customers are filing in behind him.

Interesting analysis. I hope it's fabulous, and in any case, I'm looking forward to hearing it. I'm going to order it as soon as I get back to Atlanta.

And Bunk Johnson 1944 is indeed excellent. I just didn't want to overload my best-of-American-Music list with too much Bunk.

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OK, snagged this one recently -- Peter Bocage and His Creole Serenaders. It features Louis Cottrell on both clarinet and/or tenor on all but one tune.

Very dialed-back, this one, which I love. Bocage, whom I knew nothing about before getting this, plays trumpet mainly, and some violin. This release features him leading a seven-piece band and a quartet. There's also one duo performance. All of it recorded at Tulane University in 1962 and 1963. Very nicely recorded.

I really dig the laid-back pace of the music here. Cottrell on tenor is wonderful, and is maybe the reason to hear this one. But the ensemble playing is fine, too -- very light and loose. It just rolls along effortlessly.

Bocage has a generally quiet approach to the horn, his main instrument throughout. And Cottrell is so melodic and light, they fit together beautifully, I think.

Cottrell's Living Legends release from 1961 that Chris Albertson produced is a gem, too.

61o3i1rHI-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

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I agree that the Louis Cottrell album is a gem. Note that there's some additional material by the Cottrell trio that shows up on the New Orleans twofer on Riverside.

OK, snagged this one recently -- Peter Bocage and His Creole Serenaders. It features Louis Cottrell on both clarinet and/or tenor on all but one tune.

Very dialed-back, this one, which I love. Bocage, whom I knew nothing about before getting this, plays trumpet mainly, and some violin. This release features him leading a seven-piece band and a quartet. There's also one duo performance. All of it recorded at Tulane University in 1962 and 1963. Very nicely recorded.

I really dig the laid-back pace of the music here. Cottrell on tenor is wonderful, and is maybe the reason to hear this one. But the ensemble playing is fine, too -- very light and loose. It just rolls along effortlessly.

Bocage has a generally quiet approach to the horn, his main instrument throughout. And Cottrell is so melodic and light, they fit together beautifully, I think.

Cottrell's Living Legends release from 1961 that Chris Albertson produced is a gem, too.

61o3i1rHI-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

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Chuck:

I was referring to the LPs. I guess I had forgotten that the cd had bonus tracks. For some reason I thought the cd wasn't complete. I'll have to pull the twofer from the shelves and compare.

I agree that the Louis Cottrell album is a gem. Note that there's some additional material by the Cottrell trio that shows up on the New Orleans twofer on Riverside.

You must be speaking of the lps - there are 2 bonus tracks on the cd version.

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Chuck:

I was referring to the LPs. I guess I had forgotten that the cd had bonus tracks. For some reason I thought the cd wasn't complete. I'll have to pull the twofer from the shelves and compare.

I agree that the Louis Cottrell album is a gem. Note that there's some additional material by the Cottrell trio that shows up on the New Orleans twofer on Riverside.

You must be speaking of the lps - there are 2 bonus tracks on the cd version.

the added tracks are:

Down By the Riverside 2:48

You Don't Love Me 3:29

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Chuck:

I was referring to the LPs. I guess I had forgotten that the cd had bonus tracks. For some reason I thought the cd wasn't complete. I'll have to pull the twofer from the shelves and compare.

I agree that the Louis Cottrell album is a gem. Note that there's some additional material by the Cottrell trio that shows up on the New Orleans twofer on Riverside.

You must be speaking of the lps - there are 2 bonus tracks on the cd version.

All the tracks from the two-LP set show up as bonus tracks on the appropriate CDs.

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All the tracks from the two-LP set show up as bonus tracks on the appropriate CDs.

For some reason I recall one or two exceptions. Gotta think about it.

This post prompted me to get up off my butt and actually check what I thought I knew. You're right. As far as I can tell, the bonus tracks on the CD's complete all the titles that were issued from these sessions, but not all the takes. A couple of minutes of checking reveal that a couple of Percy Humphrey alternate takes were on the double LP, but not on the CD. There may be others like this.

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