Pat Metheny: "Tap:John Zorn's Book of Angels, volume 20"

[robertoart]

I thought immediately of Benson after reading CJ's post as well. But I also don't think Metheny has the same kind of dilemma as Benson. At least not in the way Benson did in the 70's 80's. The difference between a smash hit Pop Chart No 1 and a Quartet blowing session being a fairly significant dichotomy. Benson got around this by regular guest spots on pure Jazz albums ie., Freddie Hubbard, Dexter Gordon, Jimmy Smith and numerous others.

What is interesting with regard to this kind of question re-Metheny is...

basically Metheny has three modes of playing or dialect as CJ put it earlier, The Latin Smooth Jazz type PMG band stuff, his 'blowing dates' on his own compositions or those from the Jazz repertoire, or his 'noise-sonic' improvs. I doubt Metheny really suffers too much 'fan' disillusionment' as by now, word of mouth - and/or auditioning - will alert the fan base to what he's up to on a specific project, ie., 'oh...it's one of 'these' type of records...or...'oh he's doing one of these ones again'.

In fact, compared to the very soft and smooth sound of the PMG group type stuff, wouldn't the intense 'blowing' albums be just as problematic and of disinterest to his 'mainstream' audience as a Zorn inspired project such as this one?

And was there ever a time he was really able to integrate all three of his approaches into a unified artistic vision or album. That's something that tends to be a question mark over these eclectic guys like Metheny, Corea etc? 80-81 maybe?

[7/4]

I thought immediately of Benson after reading CJ's post as well. But I also don't think Metheny has the same kind of dilemma as Benson. At least not in the way Benson did in the 70's 80's. The difference between a smash hit Pop Chart No 1 and a Quartet blowing session being a fairly significant dichotomy. Benson got around this by regular guest spots on pure Jazz albums ie., Freddie Hubbard, Dexter Gordon, Jimmy Smith and numerous others.

What is interesting with regard to this kind of question re-Metheny is...

basically Metheny has three modes of playing or dialect as CJ put it earlier, The Latin Smooth Jazz type PMG band stuff, his 'blowing dates' on his own compositions or those from the Jazz repertoire, or his 'noise-sonic' improvs. I doubt Metheny really suffers too much 'fan' disillusionment' as by now, word of mouth - and/or auditioning - will alert the fan base to what he's up to on a specific project, ie., 'oh...it's one of 'these' type of records...or...'oh he's doing one of these ones again'.

In fact, compared to the very soft and smooth sound of the PMG group type stuff, wouldn't the intense 'blowing' albums be just as problematic and of disinterest to his 'mainstream' audience as a Zorn inspired project such as this one?

And was there ever a time he was really able to integrate all three of his approaches into a unified artistic vision or album. That's something that tends to be a question mark over these eclectic guys like Metheny, Corea etc? 80-81 maybe?

Without even hearing it, I think fans of his more accessible PMG material will love it. This one isn't gonna sound like Painkiller.

I was just talking to *my* friend with a Tzadik connection and he says he first heard about this three years ago, so it's been in the works for a while.

[robertoart]

I thought immediately of Benson after reading CJ's post as well. But I also don't think Metheny has the same kind of dilemma as Benson. At least not in the way Benson did in the 70's 80's. The difference between a smash hit Pop Chart No 1 and a Quartet blowing session being a fairly significant dichotomy. Benson got around this by regular guest spots on pure Jazz albums ie., Freddie Hubbard, Dexter Gordon, Jimmy Smith and numerous others.

What is interesting with regard to this kind of question re-Metheny is...

basically Metheny has three modes of playing or dialect as CJ put it earlier, The Latin Smooth Jazz type PMG band stuff, his 'blowing dates' on his own compositions or those from the Jazz repertoire, or his 'noise-sonic' improvs. I doubt Metheny really suffers too much 'fan' disillusionment' as by now, word of mouth - and/or auditioning - will alert the fan base to what he's up to on a specific project, ie., 'oh...it's one of 'these' type of records...or...'oh he's doing one of these ones again'.

In fact, compared to the very soft and smooth sound of the PMG group type stuff, wouldn't the intense 'blowing' albums be just as problematic and of disinterest to his 'mainstream' audience as a Zorn inspired project such as this one?

And was there ever a time he was really able to integrate all three of his approaches into a unified artistic vision or album. That's something that tends to be a question mark over these eclectic guys like Metheny, Corea etc? 80-81 maybe?

Without even hearing it, I think fans of his more accessible PMG material will love it. This one isn't gonna sound like Painkiller.

I was just talking to *my* friend with a Tzadik connection and he says he first heard about this three years ago, so it's been in the works for a while.

I'm a bit out of touch with what's going on sound wise lately with either of these guys actually.

But I have to say, CJ's infectious enthusiasm for all things Metheny has me contemplating one of my ten yearly re-investigations of the PMG material

But I'll probably just return to the arms of my beloved copy of Rejoicing. That's the one Metheny himself doesn't even like

[7/4]

Really? Rejoicing is a bit of lopsided album for me. I don't really need to hear his synth after a perfect set of straight ahead.

[robertoart]

Really? Rejoicing is a bit of lopsided album for me. I don't really need to hear his synth after a perfect set of straight ahead.

Actually I never listen to that synth track.

It's special to me because I got it at around the time of its release. i was young, so it became a kind of formative LP for me. And I was obsessed with looking for guitarists who were connected to Ornette in some way. Either directly or playing his songs.

I think the band had some issues with Manfred Eicher and Metheny bore some resentment for the way the album came out.

But yeah critically speaking you are right I would agree.

[7/4]

Ha! Ok, yeah....the beginning of the album is heavenly.

[robertoart]

Lonely Woman, Horace Silver. it is quite beautiful. Guitar tuned down I think.

[7/4]

Lonely Woman, Horace Silver. it is quite beautiful. Guitar tuned down I think.

It is a beautiful tune. I have the transcription book, but never got into it. They say it's tuned down 1/2 step.

[CJ Shearn]

To reply to Randy, I think that's absolutely right, Pat doesn't have to worry about the same issues as Benson. For one, Benson does not own his own masters and his own production company. If he did, he could release a jazz project and then R&B project, and satisfy everyone. Also, while the PMG stuff sounds shiny on the surface, it's always deceptively complex; long, winding forms, lots of complex harmonies, and time changes. Actually, on "Speaking of Now" (Antonio Sanchez's first album with Pat) a lot of tunes have meter changes so transparent you don't notice them. "The Way Up" and "Imaginary Day" are two of the more challenging PMG albums around, and in the early days, especially live, it was not uncommon (as the two excellent fan made compilations, the Metheny Group Companion's) for the Group to engage in straight ahead, free playing and the more traditional Group thing in one show. More recently Pat's been incorporating this kind of thing on his solo albums, the Unity Band format he feels especially with the addition of Italy based Giulio Carmassi, who sings, plays keyboards, trumpet, saxophone, trombone, bass and drums, that he can play anything from the Group, "Song X", and "Secret Story" in addition to new material. Since we discussed Lyle too, one of his best compositional efforts in the PMG is "Episode D'Azur" which is a modern extended form bop masterpiece, on "We Live Here", which many people consider too smooth b/c of the drum loops, but that tune has a lot of Lyle's orchestrational gifts as I mentioned earlier. From the live We Live Here DVD, which has the tune a bit more stripped down. The DVD has been reissued I understand with a way to watch the concert without the interviews.

Edited March 30, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[7/4]

I love Lyle's first solo album and also Later That Evening. It's too bad he didn't record more outside of the PMG.

A reunion with Bill Frisell would be nice.

[CJ Shearn]

Yeah, when Lyle's first record came out, what was the reaction to it at the time? Was it considered just another "fusion" record? I was only 4 years old back then, and didn't hear it until my early 20's. The records I had at 4 years old were "The Sermon", "Houseparty", hard bop type stuff. Theres a few aspects, maybe Alex Acuna's drumming that are reminiscent of Weather Report but there is a whole other thing going on. I love the counterpoint between Johnson and Frisell on "Slink", so hip. Alex's drumming on there is a precursor to my ears towards Sanchez's rhythmic concept in the Group. Lyle is great on "Later that Evening", I agree, only heard it once though.

Edited March 31, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[7/4]

I was just getting into jazz, so I listened to a lot of electric jazz.

I certainly didn't think of it as fusion. Fusion to me was Holdsworth and Mahavishnu, Lyle came from ECM land where most everything was low key like Bright Size Life.

[CJ Shearn]

The album certainly fits the "what is it?" category and I never thought of it that way when it's been described as a "fusion classic". The album looks and sounds like an ECM, utilizing Jan Erik Kongshaug as engineer. The consistency of the compositions makes the multiple directions of "Street Dreams" even more bizzarre. Back to Pat, some of the best playing I've ever heard from him in 2008 live in a trio with Larry Grenadier and Jack DeJohnette. It was a benefit gig for a Buddhist monastery near Woodstock which is close to where I live now, and it was a thrill to hear them blow on standards in really just a jam session. Pat does a lot of gigs up here that are unannounced and are just the musicians playing for themselves, Pat and Jack were challenging each other all night. They were going as outside as they could on "I'll Remember April" and at the conclusion of the tune, Pat walked over to Larry, then Jack with a huge smile and gave them high fives, I'll always remember that, sitting in the front row. It was also great to hear them on "Dolphin Dance".

It hasn't occurred much on official albums but at times Pat's Grant Green influence really comes out, Grant was one of his big early influences. I would love to hear Pat do an organ trio record someday, maybe with Larry Goldings, or Sam Yahel and Jack, maybe Tain. I don't think Joey D. would be the right fit for Pat's compositions, maybe Dr. Lonnie, though he doesn't read. Pat's had insane hookups with Billy Higgins, Jack, Bill Stewart and Antonio Sanchez out of all the great drummers he's played with. He's also talked about releasing archival live material and I wouldn't mind hearing a release from the Song X tour. He should really do it soon since Ornette's quite up there, but they've talked about a follow up for years, and also an Parallel Realities band reunion. I wouldn't mind hearing a Pat duo with Kurt Rosenwinkel either.

Edited March 31, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[7/4]

I was just getting into jazz, so I listened to a lot of electric jazz.

I certainly didn't think of it as fusion. Fusion to me was Holdsworth and Mahavishnu, Lyle came from ECM land where most everything was low key like Bright Size Life.

I'm listening to Street of Dreams again this morning. The quiet stuff is nice, the big horns overbearing and the technology mostly sounds dated.

[CJ Shearn]

I think Lyle wanted a Steely Dan type sound on parts of the album, not sure. "Chorinho", "August", "Newborn" and the title track suite are the best tracks. I think the synths are certainly less dated than the DX 7 stuff of the period (of which Lyle never was a user), but the production is a bit dated.

[7/4]

Steely Dan is exactly what I was thinking of when I heard Feet First.

[CJ Shearn]

Steely Dan is exactly what I was thinking of when I heard Feet First.

Yeah the record has a definite LA studio sound even though it's mostly East Coast guys, Gadd, Jordan, Erskine, Frissell. "Before You Go" is a tune I like very much though, it sounds very smooth but harmonically theres too much going on for it to be considered smooth jazz. It's tricky because it deals in that area of harmony from EW&F and the like stuff that Pat and Lyle like so much, which appeared again on "Something to Remind You" from "We Live Here". Lyle's solo on "Street Dreams" part 2 is one of the hardest swinging solos he's ever recorded. Mind you I don't play, but my ear hears a lot of those similarities. Then of course Lyle surprised us with "Fictionary", then "SOLO" which is the one I go to the least. I love Lyle's ideas though and hope the supposed quintet album comes to fruition. Among the new pieces he wrote for it and mentioned to a Metheny Yahoo list member he wanted to put on an album is called "Eberhard". I wonder if he knows of this board and could chime in? The controversial Bill Evans remarks from Mehldau recently brought up here, made me think that many fans felt the Metheny/Mehldau albums had Mehldau as a poor substitute for Lyle. I think a small group of Pat fans are not generally jazz listeners otherwise and they aren't aware of what goes on in "the scene" so to speak.

Edited April 1, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[CJ Shearn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rw0zc BBC Jazz on 3 played the opening track. It starts at 4:37. Fans of PMG exclusively will NOT like this, neither will the fans who prefer when Pat plays straight up bop, but the fans who appreciate it all will like.

[robertoart]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rw0zc BBC Jazz on 3 played the opening track. It starts at 4:37. Fans of PMG exclusively will NOT like this, neither will the fans who prefer when Pat plays straight up bop, but the fans who appreciate it all will like.

This is weird CJ. This tune sounds AMAZINGLY like Vernon Reid era Decoding Society. Check it out Decoding Society fans and tell me I am wrong?

There's a bit of a spacey interlude that is definitely NOT Decoding Society-ish, and the lazar beam bit at the end...but this is...otherwise....Barbecue Dog era

Metheny's probably never even heard the Decoding Society.

[CJ Shearn]

I'm sure he has heard them. Pat has a huge record collection, he may have had that in mind through osmosis when he recorded it. He's a lot like most of us on this board, actually. I'll check some Decoding Society, too. The circuit bending effect at the end is funny. About time theres another controversial Metheny record, right?

[CJ Shearn]

Well, after listening to some Decoding Society and "Barbecue Dog" on YT (I knew about that record when I was 13 but that wasn't my taste then, lol..... hard bop mode) the similarities between that and "Mastema" are definitely there. What Pat, Decoding Society and this tune share in common is the Ornette connection, what Pat may have been going for with the language used on that tune. Good call, freelancer!

Edited April 19, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[CJ Shearn]

Received my copy of Downtown Music Gallery today. There are several guitar and texture things Pat employs that are quite unusual, like "Phanuel" has quite a Stockhausen influence with the backgrounds, and his flugelhorn playing is pretty funny. He sounds like a 4th grader, but somehow his piano playing improved enough to where he plays in a Cecil Taylor like fashion on the closing track. Quite an album, I think quite a few here will like it. My copy is the Tzadik release.

[7/4]

NY Times article.

[CJ Shearn]

Read that, thanks I wanna see how Marc Ribot's release in the series is in contrast, b/c while Pat's the more mainstream name, what he plays on "Tap" is pretty bizarre at times, that Zero Tolerance/Sign of Four bizarre. John really pushed Metheny to do some of his most interesting recorded work in a long while.

[alankin]

JUST ANNOUNCED! JOHN ZORN'S BOOK OF ANGELS MINI-FESTIVAL!

Ars Nova Workshop is pleased to host a three-part concert series featuring the work of composer John Zorn inside a 19th century South Philly synagogue.

Monday, June 3, 8:00pm
Abraxas | Shanir Ezra Blumenkranz

Wednesday, June 12, 8:00pm
Volac | Erik Friedlander

Thursday, June 27, 8:00pm
Moloch | Uri Caine

In the final months of 2004, composer-performer John Zorn wrote over 300 new compositions for his popular Masada project, resulting in Masada Book Two-The Book of Angels. In celebration of Zorn's 60th birthday, Ars Nova Workshop will present The Book of Angels mini-festival at Shivtei Yeshuron-Ezras Israel, a South Philadelphia storefront synagogue.

Tickets are very limited!