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AllenLowe
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Posts posted by AllenLowe
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4 hours ago, kh1958 said:
I like the track, especially the tenor sax. I also like Jason Moran's James Reese Europe CD.
thank you. Maybe we have reached an understanding.
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after the back and forth about Jason Moran's JR Europe mess I wanted to post our recording of Castles in the Sand, my JR Europe reference, with me on tenor, Kellin Hannas on trumpet, Ken Peplowski on clarinet, Aaron Johnson alto and Lewis Porter on piano. To me, the key is to ignore re-creation and instead get into the spirit of what those 1913 musicians were just discovering:
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2 hours ago, HutchFan said:
Larry - I think understand what you're saying, and that's why I feel like a critique of Moran's playing because it's unidiomatic is completely understandable. But, even if that's the case, Moran isn't under any "obligation" (to use your word) to perform JRE's music idiomatically -- using historically accurate language -- if he doesn't want to.
An analogy: People who study baroque music and the Historical Informed Practice (HIP) movement have transformed our understanding of the way Bach's and other's music actually sounded like during the baroque era. The work that HIP scholars and performers have done is valuable and important, a real addition to scholarship. However, if a performer chooses to perform in a non-HIP style, that's not wrong. For example, people in the HIP movement criticized Stokowski because "his" Bach was incredibly Romanticized & anachronistic. But, from where I'm sitting, Stokowski's interpretations are vital and interesting. They do NOT work as examples of HIP, but they do work as pieces of music that have been re-contextualized and re-interpreted in a different era.
I haven't even heard the Moran recording that we're discussing. So I'm not making an argument about the particulars of his performance. I'm talking about the principle of it. I believe very strongly that Moran is under NO obligation to perform the music in a "historically informed" style.
This also reminds me of our conversation from a few months (years?) ago about Milestone-era Sonny Rollins. Lots of folks think they know better than Sonny Rollins what he should have been playing in the 70s and beyond. That's baloney, IMO. Nobody knows better than Sonny Rollins what and how he should play. Full stop. We're free to like it or not like it -- and we are free to criticize it, based on whatever criteria we choose. But we are terribly misguided if we think we know better than Sonny what he should or should not do as an artist. That is his choice. Same with Jason Moran.
O.K. Enough on this. I'll hop off my hobbyhorse now!
once again the point is being missed - I ENCOURAGE re-interpretation; listen to my own music. But that re-interpretation either has to give us a new and interesting perspective, or it has to somehow capture the spirit of the music in a parallel way. As for Sonny, well, bad bands are bad bands. Clearly in the Milestone years he saw his chance to establish a commercial beachhead, which he did; fine, it is his right. But that doesn't mean we as listeners have to accept everything he did. It's called critical judgement; though it is funny, here you are arguing for Jason's right to play whatever he wants, but telling those of us who were not fond of the Sonny Milestone era that we have no right to our opinion. What's wrong with this picture?
3 hours ago, mjazzg said:Thank you for this post, the first in this discussion that provides insight and attempts to explain why Moran's approach might be seen as 'unsuccessful', especially in the eyes of those with knowledge and expertise. This is just what I have been looking for rather than just perjorative descriptors.
Larry Kart, are there other factors intrinsic to Europe's music that make Moran's appear not to have hit the mark? I'm genuinely interested as someone who has enjoyed Moran's project both live and recorded.
I still reserve my right to enjoy Moran's interpretation though 😀
thank you for taking the time to tell me my multiple and very-specific posts on what is wrong with Moran's interpretation lack "insight" and are pejorative.
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9 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:
What did you think of the later tracks, starting with "Memphis Blues" and going on?
I had a very similar, very negative, reaction to yours in relation to the first half of the record - particularly the opening monologue and then the rather awkwardly educational (to my ears) large group tracks which felt to me to be stiff and like they were missing a point.
But then I really enjoyed the second half, where Moran's piano is more prominent and the treatment of the mid sized group tunes is looser and more daring. A lot of the stiff studio quality of the first half seemed to drop away.
It did not quite redeem the first half of the record for me, but it did change my overall view of the project. I think that if it had not had that opening monologue and perhaps had fewer of the larger group tracks I would have regarded it much more highly. As it is, I thought it was an interesting experiment that I would return to, but perhaps not all of it.
it's been a little while, I will go back and check them out.
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30 minutes ago, JSngry said:
Do you know for a fact that Moran is functioning in a vacuum and only having an interior monologue to reach his conclusions, not engaging with other sources/resources, or does it just seem that way to you!
I have sent him emails - not contentious ones, but about other subjects - that he doesn't respond to, which is ok and expected, though I do consider myself to be a peer. But my larger assumption is based on dealing - and trying to deal - with people at that level of fame. I think it breeds a certain sense of un-touchability, a desire not to have to deal with unpleasant disagreements, and an ability to avoid those disagreements just because you can. And honestly, I don't have the energy to make any more futile efforts; it's next to impossible to get in touch with famous people and I am too old and have enough pride (not a lot but enough) to not want to face predictable rejection.
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4 hours ago, HutchFan said:
There's is nothing that says Moran (or anyone else) has to perform the music in the same manner that it was performed in the past. You might argue that a performance is unidiomatic -- but that's very different than saying it's wrong (relative to whose standard? The past's? Maybe that standard doesn't interest Moran) or ignorant (because he may have deliberately made choices that fly in the face of historical convention).
I love Charles Ives' music. A Frenchman recorded his Second Sonata, a quintessentially American work. But the pianist's interpretation made Ives sound like Debussy or Ravel. Was it idiomatic? No. Was it wrong? No.
Also, I would argue (as I have in the past) that comparing politics and art is a misleading and unhelpful analogy. Political outcomes can be measured; there are rules and laws related to government. Heaven knows politics is not objective -- but there are objective measures that can occur as the result of legislation and policy decisions. Art, on the other hand, does not work like that. What's the FIRST THING people say when they encounter art that subverts their expectations? They say, "That's not art!" And that's because the meaning, function, and definition of art is elusive.
Finally, comparing someone's musical choices to MAGA or Trump is needlessly inflammatory & polarizing. So -- even when you have very interesting ideas to bring to the conversation -- you come across as a know-it-all who owns the the one-and-only "valid perspective." Any other point of view is just "ignorance." That is off-putting and disrespectful. That's why people react negatively. It's not (only) what you said; it's how you said it.
Respectfully.
I am sorry but I feel that this completely misses the point. Of course Jason can play it any way he wants, but that doesn't free him from any judgement that someone may make that he is misunderstanding the music and the idiom. Yes, if he gave an alternative that made sense, that would be a good thing, but he has turned a very free and liberated music into one that is walled in by muddle-class inhibition and a snowflake-like over-sensitivity to racial style and context. I am NOT arguing that it is un-idiomatic; I am arguing that it is dull and denatured and has lost the feeling and essence of the original - which he was trying to preserve in what I think is a very misguided way. You disagree, fine, but you cannot deflect criticism by saying that the artist has the right to do the material his or her own way. No one is arguing for censorship. And I wasn't comparing the musical choices to MAGA - I was simply saying we have this double standard. We hold people's political decisions to certain principled standards based on information and historical perspective, and that is what I am doing musically here. If anyone is put off by my way of arguing - and I have attacked no one here personally - then they can counter my argument. I give my opinion and then I outline my reasons for having that opinion. If you are put off by that, well....you just don't, in my opinion, have a real sense of the necessity of intellectual give-and-take. It's not personal; I think that when someone pretends to be delving into history by merely reproducing a very middle class and "respectable" interpretation of something that was, actually, quite respectable and even middle class - but the middle class of 1913 and not the middle class of 2023 - then there is a problem and I feel like someone needs to speak for these musicians who cannot speak for themselves. Yes, that's my opinion. I am not advocating that anyone be forced to accept it (btw I am about to teach a 16 part course on this for Lincoln Center, and it's free, so anyone who wants to get a better understanding of my perspective is welcome to attend by Zoom).
6 hours ago, jlhoots said:I certainly prefer Little Richard to Pat Boone.
I wonder what Jason would have to say about your assessment. I'd love to hear that debate.
he will never go public with this kind of discussion, which I would love to have. The reason is that he doesn't have to. I am a mere fly spec on the ass of the universe for people like him, who, at that level, do not need to engage with anyine to justify their own positions. All they have to do is give a monologue.
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On 4/18/2023 at 10:40 AM, jlhoots said:
I still don't get what this has to do with Trump or MAGA both of which I hate.
My point with the Trump comparison is that when it comes to politics, we are critical of people who make judgements with insufficient evidence or information. To me there are particular kinds of music, historically based, that require a certain level of knowledge in order to understand how they sound and why they sound that way. I’m sorry if I offended people who liked Moran’s recent things, but the James Reese Europe stuff in particular is so musically misguided that it just needs to be said. Just as I wouldn’t try to judge a classical performance, these old black forms require a more comprehensive understanding of how music was made in those days and why it was made the way it was made
And this is not some kind of abstract intellectual point of view, because the original music is still there, still available, and not to listen to it is like preferring Pat Boone to little Richard. The difference is that dramatic.
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17 hours ago, mjazzg said:
I'm sorry but that's just b.s. in itself. Some of us enjoy music for how it sounds to us and don't need a whole heap of history to do so.
I'm sure all your peerless research gives you the right piss on other musicians, but possibly only in your world. You seem intent on setting yourself above so many others, both musicians and listeners, it's tiresome
There, that's off my chest now. I'm off to listen to some Jason Moran and be socially edified (whatever the fk that actually means) whilst doing so
So it’s a bad idea for me to offer a strong opinion, but it’s OK for you? Attacking what you think is my narrow little world? Well, it’s not really that narrow. I’ve sold a lot of books and my work has been circulated pretty widely, more widely than your post. If you don’t know the music, you shouldn’t talk about it. It’s the Trumpies version of political opinions. Lots of ideas with no information. that older musical world is complicated and ingenious. It’s like all of Jazz, you can’t just listen to a little snippet, and then become an expert.
17 hours ago, jlhoots said:I suppose that's satire or sarcasm - otherwise I have no idea what it means.
It’s the irony of it all… In the name of African-American heritage, we present watered down versions of that heritage. It’s like a fear of facing the real music, which is just nasty and complicated.
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11 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:
This reflected half of my view, but I found the record greatly improved in the second half, when there was more Moran. In the first half it had a very academic stiffness, which felt pedagogical. It reminded me of some of the dreaded later era Wynton Marsalis records, where he is doing little more than re-enact early jazz as an educational tool.
I also note how sterile the recording sounds - basically everything sounds completely isolated, which is probably the way it was done. There is no real space, no harmonic interaction between the instruments, like it was phoned in. Honestly, and this goes counter to some other things I have said, but white audiences of a certain kind love this kind of b.s, think it's socially edifying.
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1 hour ago, JSngry said:
I suppose there's an argument to be made that that's exactly what has been happening.
but for reasons that have nothing to do with race; this is an art music. And in the years since it faded from the pop charts even more so.
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55 minutes ago, jlhoots said:
Glad you liked it. 💀
I found it edifying. Since I've listened to it I have become a MAGA person, since the recording fits the persona of people who are deathly afraid of real blackness.
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24 minutes ago, jlhoots said:
Jason Moran: From The Dancehall To The Battlefield
I am going to say something self-promotional here; Jason is a great pianist, but that album to me represents the worst kind of pseudo-interpretation of older materials. It sounds like just another stiff white version of old-timey music (in spite of some "contemporary" sounding soloists who end up just sounding like they are at the wrong session). Musicians who do these kinds of projects tend to expose themselves as having not really listened to that old sound - black and white - and have ended up with these awful, polite examinations of what should be unruly music.
Now the self-promotional aspect of this post - on our new release I do a JR Europe reference of sorts with a thing we did called Castles in Sand, which is miles above anything on that Moran album. It's frustrating to hear people flocking to fame, when the music is what should be essential.
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17 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:
Thank you. Yes, that is not what I was saying in my original post. I was saying that this should have been addressed long ago - and perhaps it had been - if indeed this is the case. If African American writers are somehow being blocked from writing about jazz, that is one thing. If African American writers in 2023 are interested in different topics, that is quite another.
I think it's a cultural sea change - well, it's been going on for a long time - and black writers seem, for the most part, to have moved on. As for you statement about white audiences - I should have spoken up before, but it is an absolute truism, based on my experience of attending jazz events for about 55 years. This is not to say that there are not black audiences for jazz, but the music would have died a slow death years ago without the support of white folks.
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7 minutes ago, sonnymax said:
I don't think I twisted your words by quoting you.
This is the statement I wanted to address. Complacency is complicity.
Your response only reinforces my original assertion - white fragility.
Dan and I disagree about a lot of politics, but I know him well enough by now that when it comes to race and music he is only about the music, and doesn't get stuck in pseudo-woke poses. As for white fragility, you've got it backwards - to me the fragility is white folks who just bend to any opposite argument about race, who deny their own personal opinions because they are afraid of causing political offense. They are too fragile to risk dealing with heavy issues in which they might hold an unpopular opinion.
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On 4/16/2023 at 9:52 AM, sonnymax said:
White guys telling other white guys about (largely) black experience? Isn't that how much of history is written? And you're okay with that? Authentic voices tell a more truthful story. I'm not talking about the skin color of the author. I'm talking about writers who help me understand the cultural and historical value of the music I love. Of course, there are writers like the OP who do an excellent job. But the absence of black and other non-white voices is troubling and in need of change.
I really take offense at this; I have been teaching, playing, and advocating for this music for about 50 years, at great personal sacrifice; I have recorded over 20 CDs, most of which are related to an examination of jazz's complex history; I have helped numerous musicians, gig-wise and financially; I have given up that career for a period of 20 years to help my son and basically had to, from a professional standpoint, start over again; I have written books on the subject - including all of American music - which are more comprehensive on the subject than that of virtually any other writer, white or black. At this point jazz and black vernacular music is so far from its roots that the music is an art form accessible to anyone, regardless of blood line or racial hierarchy (which strikes me as Nazi-like in its dependence on genetic continuity); some of the worst writing I have read of late on jazz or black culture has been from African American writers, one of whom, in a recent, book informed us that white writers were hopeless insufficient from a racial standpoint and could not understand the music like black writers (and then proceeded to write articles that were completely devoid of any historical, social, or musical understanding). This whole thing reduces those of us who have spent so many years in support of this music to idiotic racial symbols. The truth is, without these white advocates, neither jazz history or the history of the blues would have been preserved in any comprehensive manner. I have just had enough of this bullshit. I support black writers, but I refuse to change my standards based on a false sense of historical reparations (which I also support). I write a lot about this, btw, in my recent book Letter to Esperanza, about the stupidity of ideologically-based historicism with people like Rhiannon Giddens and Daphne Brooks. And don't get me started on Nicholas Payton.
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Every Dog Has His Day.....with Shipp, Mat Walerian, William Parker, Hamid Drake STILL SEALED ESP $8 plus media shipping ($4)
Sonic Fiction......with Shipp, Mat Walerian, Michael Bisio, Whit Dickey STILL SEALED ESP $8 plus media shipping ($4)
This is Beautiful Because We Are Beautiful People....with Shipp, Mat Walerian, William Parker STILL SEALED ESP $8 plus media shipping ($4)
The Uppercut....with Shipp, Walerian, recorded live. STILL SEALED ESP $8 plus media shipping ($4)
Jungle.....with Shipp, Walerian, Drake 2 CDs STILL SEALED ESP $10 plus media shipping ($5)
World Construct Matthew Shipp Trio with Shipp, Bisio, Newman Taylor Baker STILL SEALED ESP $8 plus media shipping ($4)
all shipping prices to the USA; will send overseas for extra my paypal is allenlowe5@gmail.com
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for me his best work are the solo piano albums; there are two or three that I own. I find his post-'60s orchestral work intriguing but ultimately aimless, with some notable exceptions. But the solo piano work shows how amazing his musical conception was, in small, focused snippets.
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price increase; you missed your chance: $275 plus shipping.
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thanks; Dick was just frustrated, I think; this would really have put him out there.
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question for those reading the bio - does it mention Dick Katz? He was the last pianist Sonny hired in the '50s before Sonny decided to go without a piano (sorry, I may have mentioned this earlier; I am having some of what I hope are temporary cognitive glitches due to a sudden and major resurgence of neuropathy). Dick was still pissed off about this 20 years later, feeling that he had missed a big chance.
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final price drop before these go to the Audio Graveyard:
$250 plus shipping in the USA.
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On 2/7/2021 at 3:58 PM, JSngry said:
Billy will keep you busy for a while!
As long as you're tracking, track down Hot Line, a Bill Barron album on Savoy where he shares the front line with Booker. Excellent stuff.
Jim - I may have posted this already, but I once told Bill Barron how good he was on that recording, especially against a powerhouse like Ervin. Bill was a very modest guy, and I think he was embarrassed but very flattered.
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On 3/31/2023 at 10:56 AM, Mark Stryker said:
Off the top:
1. Frankie Newton across a zillion labels and his whole career as a leader and sideman -- anything where he has solo space or makes a significant ensemble contribution. There's a 3 CD set on Acrobat that kinda does this but it's by no means complete and there are no notes/context etc. on a remarkably individual music and life.
2. Complete George Adams-Don Pullen Quartet Studio and Live Sessions. This would at least include everything on Soul Note, Timeless, and Blue Note -- that's 10 LPs if you include the Timeless record from Montmartre with Scofield as a gues. (There are also 11 unissued tracks from this performance recorded the day before.) You would also have to think about whether to include the (presumably) bootleg live stuff that's some out on Palcosenico (two LPs), Flock (three tracks), and Repertoire (three tracks with Lewis Nash in for the Richmond).
3. Complete Frank Strozier as a leader on Mercury, Vee Jay, Jazzland, SteepleChase, and Trident -- there are seven LPs that got released, but what would have been his debut on Mercury date (c. 1958) remains unissued, so eight LPs total worth of material, plus alternates.
4. I haven't thought through the concept and organization yet, but I would LOVE to see a set devoted to Budd Johnson.
George Adams' playing drives me up a wall; always goes into that patented yodel of his; an entire Mosaic of him would definitely send me to the loony bin (which might make my wife happy).
I will tell you a great Mosaic - and one that I actually believe would do well - Dave Schildkraut; I've got everything, even one with a solo from circa 1954 that sounds pre-Coltrane (and Trane admired him, voted for him once as best alto, and dedicated a song to him at his Jazz Gallery gig). There's plenty, a lot of amazing side man work, and I think I have everything (including a mint reissue LP pressing of Like Cool with Eddie Bert and Hank Jones). And I recorded him in 1978 and there is some amazing stuff that he did.
That settles it; I guess the consensus is for Schildkraut.
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On 3/28/2023 at 4:30 PM, Teasing the Korean said:
I Googled these and my results showed a few different styles and sizes of speaker. Are these floor speakers?
I will post a picture - I think they sound best elevated at least slightly -
What Am Listening to? Myself (for those who think those who can't, just complain and teach) -
in Miscellaneous Music
Posted
it's all history, and I don't expect other people to have the same degree of obsession as I have with the details, aesthetic and otherwise. The other thing I would note is that I understand that when someone attacks something that you admire, it feels personal. It's not, but I know it's an unavoidable response.