[Folk Music And Jazz]

Eric: the problem with Peretti is that he makes outright mistakes and repeats conventional wisdom as though it's historical revelation - he just repeats what others have said and puts it into an obvious context (I know you're going to ask what mistakes but I don't have his books on hand - threw 'em away, to be honest); Lewis Erenburg is another - I'm reading his book (written not that long ago) and what does he do but cite the myth of Bessie Smith dying because she was not admitted to a White hospital! Embarrasing stuff - Cathy Ogren tells us that Ballin' the Jack had sexual connotations - HELP! This, however, is academia -

[Nastiness & This Board]

hey Brad, that kind of response is counter-productive - Chuck can take it - and so can Che -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

eric - I agreee with you essentially - the point that has been made, however, is that blues has become something of a generic term -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

it's blues, baby, blues -

when you can't even see your shoes...

[Folk Music And Jazz]

ahh, married, middle aged and overweight - now there's a context I can understand -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

Dr. Rat - to answer your question: here's a few contextualizers with limited understanding of the actual music - and give me time and I'll get some more - Burton Peretti; Lewis Erenberg; Beebee Garafolo (might have the spelling wrong); Jeffrey Melnick; William Kenney; Cathy Ogren; Robin Kelley (not the singer, the guy at Columbia U) -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

the only problem with the Rounder is that they have edited out, as I recall, most of the interviews - there are old Swaggie LPS, but they are probably pretty pricey by now -

[Nastiness & This Board]

and whatever happened to Chuck Nessa? I heard he was posting under the name Che-

[Folk Music And Jazz]

my other problem (and this is NOT related to anything you guys have said) is that blues has become something of an ideology for the Wynton Marsalis's and Stanley Crouch's of the world, and sometimes I want to grab them by the scruff of the neck (not a good idea with Crouch, by the way) and tell them that the heritage of which they speak so fondly is much more complicated -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

on the other hand - I was thinking about this last night just before I fell asleep - many people call Kenny G jazz; would we accept that designation just because so many people use it as part of their own musical points of view and just because it has its own sociological justification? I'm not so sure we can really accept it without some challenge -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

well, you caught me at a tired moment and I wanted to appear to be gracious -

your points are well taken, it's just that I've spent a lot of time listening and studying this stuff and you're right, in common usage people have different ideas of what it is and what it isn't. It's just that once you look at this incredible universe of black music it's so damned complicated and multi-layered. My arguments are not with audiences but with academics who have created these very convenient categories and who have spent so much time "contextualizing" that they never really listen to the music. Fortunately there are people like yourself who actually have real-life experience with the music and I have no real argument with your perspective.

[*** Booker Ervin *** (non-BN recordings)]

Exultation with Frank Strozier is another great album - and whoever said Ervin has only two solos ain't really listening. I knew Barron when he was up at Wesleyan and when I told him how well I thought he held his own on the Savoy date with Booker he was quite flattered - but that is some great album -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

all right, you win -

[Kay Kyser]

he's no Martin Denny -

[Cedar Walton, Hank Mobley - Breakthrough!]

well, you guys have got me interested - just ordered it from Amazon -

[Practice routines]

he uses a short scale guitar -

[The troll who infests JC]

people I've talked to in the business, actually, trace it directly to Marsalis and the Lincoln Center Orchestra, saying that as his fees started to rise the whole industry began to change in response -

[The troll who infests JC]

speaking of hearing things blindly and giving a more honest appraisal - I, too, was riding in the car and heard this big band - I remember thinking, "this is pseudo Ellington, annoying mannerism, pretensious 'old timey' posturing" - and it was the Lincoln Center Orchestra. On an objective level we can say Wynton is an excellent trumpeter, and his music is his music, whatever. Politically, however, I've described him and Crouch as making a club out of tradition and beating us over the head with it - it's fine to do what he does, but their critical attitudes amount to a kind of coerciveness when you think of his power and influence. And, in practical terms, Lincoln Center has not only sucked away funding and valuable resources, but Marsalis himself, with his inflated fees, has hurt a lot of musicians. Talk to people who book these things - there is no longer a middle ground of booking fees, everything has gone through the roof as a result of what they charge - and if your local organization books Wynton et al, you can be sure there ain't gonna be much (if anything) left over for other groups or concerts -

[Practice routines]

well, Chico Marx used to practice piano by soaking his hands in warm water - and that was it. But he was too busy gambling and womanizing - I've been teaching (or trying to teach) myelf guitar (from saxophone previously) over the last 4 years - I find myself just playing - trying to invent, to play lines, to avoid patterns, to learn to always find a tonality no matter where it falls on the neck, to be able to start from any position on the fretboard and construct a scale or line. To play chromatics, to be able to jump intervals, to play anywhere necessary to vary texture and sound. To, really, try to play something fresh and to avoid cliches and to try and get in an out of chords and scales. Don't know if this is orthodox but it seems to work well for me -

[Folk Music And Jazz]

Davis - I have often cited Van Der Merwe's book in the past, but not long ago someone on the Jazz Research line gave it something of a skewering - can you elaborate on your feeling about the book? Thanks -

[Nastiness & This Board]

I'd invite more of you over, but I already have a low supply of silverware -

[Nastiness & This Board]

b3 - yes, there were uncomfortable moments in that thread, but I'm sure I was as responsible as you were - things get tense in the heat of the moment, and there is something interesting and confusing about everyone posting at the same time, chronologies changing, and edits going on that change the post you may be responding to (I edit like crazy and would NEVER change a response to make someone else look bad, though I was accused of this once; the accuser and I have since made up, however). I have strong opinions, I know, and sometimes something typed in the isolation of a home office can come out differently than intended. I know that THIS thread will make me think twice about the TONE of what I post (sadly, I may have to stop making Nazi jokes; such is the legacy of the Producers). I will also let Martin Denny rest in peace, the poor guy has suffered enough (and I also have some regrets about the Leslie Gourse thread).

[Folk Music And Jazz]

interesting about the baby Dodds, and I'd like to hear the exact words he used - (I have the autobiography and will have to take a look if I can find it) but it's certainly quite possible that he heard the blues around that time. That still, however, does not tell us where they came from, and in the absence of real documentation (this intereview was, after all, done well after the fact) we cannot really judge. This "musical language" you refer to, however, was not necessarily the blues (once again we may be confusing cause and effect) and people were likely to use the term "blues" to describe the modern gospel singers because they had no other frame of reference. And if, indeed, blues WAS played by those jazz groups near the turn of the century, well, this gives increased credibility to my theory that the blues was a commercial codification and consolidation of older black musical forms. There is, apparently, old sheet music (from the 19th century) which does contain the 12 bar blues format (there is a professor, Peter Muir, who is currently doing research on the professional songwriter and the development of the blues). It is just that we really should not make statements of fact about things for which we do not have the facts. The origins of the blues are really shrouded in mystery and my belief is that those older references you speak of, vital and important as they are, are really pre-blues.

[Your rarest possession in your music collection.]

well, Johnny was an OK guy, definitely the last of the Mehegans -

[Nastiness & This Board]

one always get's a little defensive when cited as the example of "what not to do" - but I'm certainly glad to help out on the forum whenever I can. I have found that things I've said in jest have been taken a bit too seriously (probably my fault - I'll have to start using those happy faces). There also may be some generational things going on, and my political refernces may condemn me to geezerhood. In that thread with myself and Joe and b3 we certainly approached meltdown, but I think we basically agreed to disagree, which is definitely the right way to go. But I will say that Sahara's response to my political defense is somewhat symptomatic of our failure to see each other's point of view or to even attempt to do so (I was simply pointing out that politics is fair game for ridicule and satire, I was not playing some Nazi card, whatever that is). This is unfortunate but may be the inevitable result of a free exchange.