[The Woodshed]

Great stuff on "The Real World"- that'll keep me busy for a year or so!

[Small group jazz with tuba?]

Frank Strozier used Howard Johnson on his "Remember Me" LP.

[John McLaughlin's "The Heart of Things"]

Dimeola really cannot play jazz, at all. His lines bear no resemblance to the tradition, and he also has one of the most egotistical and insecure musicians I've ever heard. He got into the guitar synth thing feeling supposedly jealous of Metheny, and asked Dan Gottlieb on the "Soaring Through a Dream" album to emulate the Metheny cymbal groove. Frank Gambale had way more jazz chops to spare, regardless of what people feel about his playing, and it makes the guitar playing on "The Mothership Returns" more enjoyable.

I remember reading an interview with DiMeola in one of those guitar magazines. They asked him if he played jazz. He said that jazz was not a progressive, creative music; he only played music that was really creating something that had never been done before.

I was obsessed with finding examples of guys like Coryell and McLaughlin playing straight-ahead jazz back in the 60s, because they both cited Tal farlow as one of their influences. I've still never found any.

Coryell admitted in his autobiography that up until about 1980, he could only play modal, rock-oriented jazz. I don't know if there are any examples of McLaughlin playing anything other than modal jazz, pre-Mahavishnu days.

The only guitarist of the jazz-rock bands back in the 60s and 70s I've found who has shown evidence on a record that he mastered the straight-ahead jazz idiom BEFORE he found fame with a jazz-rock band has been Terry Smith, of the jazz-rock band "IF". His 1967 record, "Fallout" shows that he could hold his own with any jazz players of that time.

[John McLaughlin's "The Heart of Things"]

Calling Roy Clark?!?

Seconded. Those pentatonic licks swing like a Clem Kadiddlehopper rusty gate at the Grand old Opry. ; ' ).

[The Jazz Discography on line]

http://www.lordisco.com/musicians/C13.html

I'm on page C13 of The Musicians List. ; ' )

[The Jazz Discography on line]

I was able to access the musicians list. I've got two credits. Hooray for me! ; - )

[Kenny Burrell]

As far as music from the ghetto nowadays, the only hope for any type of meaningful stuff will come from kids from the church IMHO. The secular kids are so fucking square, it makes me want to puke.

The church kids get turned on to some very hip stuff by people like Hezekiah Walker, and they want to emulate it. They're the only ones that seem to have a real love and gift for creative music, whether it's jazz, funk, fusion or Gospel/R&B.

[Melvin Rhyne RIP]

RIP Melvin. You made those Wes recordings the great works of art they are.

[Kenny Burrell]

OK, I'll take a crack. This is one of those areas where I think those with training instinctively "get it" and those without don't.

The part I didn't get about sgcim's comment was the idea that Burrell ought to have been expected to play the song a certain way, or at a certain tempo. Should anybody be criticizing a jazz artist- a legendary one at that- for such things? Can we really assume that he was incapable of playing it faster? Do we really care?

In most such cases, yes, it's fair to offer this kind of criticism. "Oh but this guy is a LEGEND you can't criticize his note choice or phrasing or rhythmic feel, because he's a legend for a reason" doesn't wash.

There's a long tradition of older players coming down hard on younger ones for various deviations from "authenticity" when playing. The big example that comes to mind is inattention to detail to the lyrics of standards, leading to phrasing that sounds awkward or weak when you know the original sheet music. But there's no reason this can't cut the other way too.

In this case, the essence of Oliver Nelson's writing isn't just the melody or the changes, it's the voicings in the harmony. That's the reason The Blues and the Abstract Truth is a top-100 jazz recording and every cover of it is just some dude blowing over a minor blues after playing the melody line. So unless KB (or another player) is doing something else that's equally hip on the head, it's fair to ask "why are you even bothering to play THIS tune rather than Equinox or whatever if you're not going to show that you've thought about what made the tune interesting in the first place?"

...adding to say, this is the same reason Larry Goldings's "Hans Groiner" character is hilarious. He's taking things to an extreme by not treating Monk's music with the same pedestrian attitude as 95% of players playing the tunes out of the Real Book. Only the gag in this case is that Groiner has thought very carefully about Monk's music...and as a result has made deliberate harmonic/rhythmic choices that are the exact opposite of what makes Monk's music tick, taking care to iron out every single quirk. Well stated, BW. I can't wait to hear the Hans Groiner thing. Is it on any of LG's records?

[Kenny Burrell]

WTF "claims" have I made? That I can play ONE melody close to how the composer intended it to be played? Wow. I'll be lookin' over my shoulder for that "guy in the overalls" who's sat there like JSngry and I have, with BATAT playing SM over and over again, listening for Geo. Barrows' (whom I worked with many times over a two year period) bari sax line, and studying big band derangements of SM,

and just quaking with fear and dread at the anticipation of being humiliated and handed my ass by the genius in the overalls. ; - 0

So first of all, Burrell's performance of Stolen Moments is criticised by you as such - "and though he at least tried to use some of those cluster voicings that are the essence of the greatness of that tune, he fell far short of capturing it, either harmonically or even being able to play it at the correct tempo", fair enough if that is your perception, but then for good measure you add with a hubris that I never see here from the musicians who contribute - "And if you're saying to your screen, "Oh yeah, let's see you do a better job", the answer is, "yes, I can".

Then later on Burrell's version is described by you as 'great'.

Perhaps some consistency to go with your EGO?

BTW what Burrell version are you talking about? Is it the one on Moon And Sand? a friend of mine had it on a CD named "Stolen Moments". As far as the "great" comment about KB's version goes, I was referring to KB's blowing on the tune, not his playing of the head, but at least KB made the attempt to play some of ON's original harmonies, which is more than I can say for Lee Ritenour, Stanley Jordan, John Basile, Jerry Hahn, and the others who have recorded it.

Let me just say in closing that KB was my first and strongest influence. I sat in my basement and copied every note of his version of "God Bless The Child" from the LP of the same name when I was a kid, along with his solo version of "Just a Sittin' and a Rockin'" and "The Shadow of Your Smile" from the Night Song LP. When I play a ballad or a blues-tinged phrase, KB is still my first and greatest inspiration.

And yes, this post is all about me; this website is all about me; in fact, the entire Internet is all about me- I invented it! ; - )

[John Carisi on Stefan Wolpe]

Pretty fascinating. The Tony Scott interview was very interesting. He was a real music adventurer. I think he wrote an autobiography; after reading that, I've got to find it. The thing that amazed me the most was that all the George Russell music that I love the most was directly influenced by Stefan Wolpe. I knew that from reading the Russell biography, but I forgot it until I just read that interview.

Russell then got involved with his Lydian Chromatic Concept, which didn't speak to me in the same way that his earlier stuff did.

There weren't too many people from the classical world that had that much of an influence on jazz musicians back then.

Hall Overton was probably an even greater influence on jazz musicians of that time, because he not only taught them, in a manner that was very similar to Wolpe's method, but also played jazz piano with many of them; Bird, Raney Woods, Brookmeyer, Teddy Charles and others.

He, of course, also wrote the Monk Big Band arrangements, and seemed to be involved in both the contemporary classical and jazz scenes 24/7 when he lived in the Jazz Loft on 6th Ave with Eugene Smith. It seems like he literally burnt himself out at the age of 52.

[Kenny Burrell]

Obviously, it's great, as is KB's, but again, they don't play ON's harmonization of the melody. Eddie doesn't play the parallel maj7th chord on the third beat of the fourth measure, but who gives a shit- he swings his ass off, and plays great lines, which is all that matters! My complaint is primarily with these cats that completely ignore ON's genius harmonization of the tune, and just play a basic minor blues on the first eight bars of the MELODY. Eddie's version is so hip and swinging, he transcends all my nitpicking.

Joel, my brother, NOsky on the OUTsky. Even you turned against me when I said on that "other forum" that I performed at a jazz festival in front of thousands of people. No one can be trusted!

Now, now, let's keep a civil tone; after all, this is the Internest! After working for some ten years on it, I think I can confidently say that, yes, I can play the melody to SM better than KB or any other guitarist I've ever heard play it, but that's the only claim I'm making.
Even some pianists don't get the voicings right, but Ahmad Jamal plays it absolutely perfectly. Janice Friedman has a nice take on it, too.
KB is one of the all-time greats, but I'd personally rather hear Jimmy Raney, 1950s Tal Farlow, Bruce Forman, "Bad" Benson, Russell Malone, Lenny Breau, Wes, Larry Koonse, and a few others, than KB on tempos over 320bpm.

In Kenny's bag, he simply can't be beat, but as a sideman on countless sessions, he was sometimes forced to go outside of his technical abilities on some of the more burning tempos.
I've been looking for his version of "Stolen Moments" for years, after I'd heard that he was the only guitarist to actually play it using Oliver Nelson's original harmonies. A friend finally played it for me, and though he at least tried to use some of those cluster voicings that are the essence of the greatness of that tune, he fell far short of capturing it, either harmonically or even being able to play it at the correct tempo. And if you're saying to your screen, "Oh yeah, let's see you do a better job", the answer is, "yes, I can.

Here's where the problem is: No one knows who the fuck you are. So saying "yes I can" just makes you an internet tough guy with nothing to back it up. You'd be better off making your criticism and leaving it at that.

Or telling us who you are and pointing us to <i>your</i> record with the superior version of "Stolen Moments".

When you tell us who you are, I'm sure we'll be able to see that you're the modern-day KB, having racked up dozens and dozens of sideman gigs, where your particular bag is always technically perfect.

sgcim --What do you think of Eddie Higgins' version of SM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDt11RY9CfM

[Kenny Burrell]

Now, now, let's keep a civil tone; after all, this is the Internest! After working for some ten years on it, I think I can confidently say that, yes, I can play the melody to SM better than KB or any other guitarist I've ever heard play it, but that's the only claim I'm making.

Even some pianists don't get the voicings right, but Ahmad Jamal plays it absolutely perfectly. Janice Friedman has a nice take on it, too.

KB is one of the all-time greats, but I'd personally rather hear Jimmy Raney, 1950s Tal Farlow, Bruce Forman, "Bad" Benson, Russell Malone, Lenny Breau, Wes, Larry Koonse, and a few others, than KB on tempos over 320bpm.

In Kenny's bag, he simply can't be beat, but as a sideman on countless sessions, he was sometimes forced to go outside of his technical abilities on some of the more burning tempos.
I've been looking for his version of "Stolen Moments" for years, after I'd heard that he was the only guitarist to actually play it using Oliver Nelson's original harmonies. A friend finally played it for me, and though he at least tried to use some of those cluster voicings that are the essence of the greatness of that tune, he fell far short of capturing it, either harmonically or even being able to play it at the correct tempo. And if you're saying to your screen, "Oh yeah, let's see you do a better job", the answer is, "yes, I can.

Here's where the problem is: No one knows who the fuck you are. So saying "yes I can" just makes you an internet tough guy with nothing to back it up. You'd be better off making your criticism and leaving it at that.

Or telling us who you are and pointing us to <i>your</i> record with the superior version of "Stolen Moments".

When you tell us who you are, I'm sure we'll be able to see that you're the modern-day KB, having racked up dozens and dozens of sideman gigs, where your particular bag is always technically perfect.

[Greatest LPs to never make it to CD]

"Blue Moses" was issued as a Japanese import. I don't recall if it ever was issued in the U.S.

Yes, CTI put it out in 2011. http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Moses-Records-Anniversary-Edition/dp/B0057FWU3I/ref=tmm_acd_title_0

I actually paid a somewhat unreasonable price for a used copy of the import, only to find (a bit too late) that the last track was damaged. So I was quite glad when it was reissued.

Great news. I wonder if Randy Weston was bugged that they re-issued that on CD? I don't know what he didn't like about it. It wasn't African enough?

That reminds me of the Joe Puma story. He was doing a gig with either Richard Davis or Ron Carter (I forget which), and the bass player said he was sick of doing all these standards written by white, Broadway songwriters. he wanted to do music of his people.

Joe said to him," Alright, you wait there for a minute. I'm gonna go outside and get a log, and you can beat on it."

Whoever it was should have taken the log and have beaten on Puma with it. He would have had to wait on a long line. Puma's blunt sense of humor burnt a lot of bridges.

[Greatest LPs to never make it to CD]

"Blue Moses" was issued as a Japanese import. I don't recall if it ever was issued in the U.S.

Yes, CTI put it out in 2011. http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Moses-Records-Anniversary-Edition/dp/B0057FWU3I/ref=tmm_acd_title_0

I actually paid a somewhat unreasonable price for a used copy of the import, only to find (a bit too late) that the last track was damaged. So I was quite glad when it was reissued. Great news. I wonder if Randy Weston was bugged that they re-issued that on CD? I don't know what he didn't like about it. It wasn't African enough?

That reminds me of the Joe Puma story. He was doing a gig with either Richard Davis or Ron Carter (I forget which), and the bass player said he was sick of doing all these standards written by white, Broadway songwriters. he wanted to do music of his people.

Joe said to him," Alright, you wait there for a minute. I'm gonna go outside and get a log, and you can beat on it."

[Greatest LPs to never make it to CD]

I don't know if this one has been mentioned, but I don't think my favorite CTI record of all-time, "Blue Moses" by Randy Weston has made it to CD. It could be because Randy hated that LP more than anything he ever did, and refuses to let it be issued.

My other fave CTI LP, "Salt Song", by Stanley Turrentine, was finally released on CD a few years back.

I had to wipe the drool from my mouth when I was buying that one.

[joyful jazz]

If this shit don't make you happy, I don't know what to say:

[Brad Mehldau on Bill Evans]

My main issue with the Bradster was his dissing of Evans. I have no problem with him saying BE wasn't a direct influence on him, but he goes a lot further than that.

And Gil Evans, as great as he was, had nothing to do with "Kind of Blue", but BE had everything to do with it. George Russell claimed to have been responsible, but it's been argued that his style of modal writing had nothing in common with the music on KOB.

Speaking of GR and BE, I just came up with a score of "All About Rosie"- maybe I'll give the Bradster a call and see how he stacks up to "that guy's" solo in the last movement...smiley's ain't workin';- )

[Brad Mehldau on Bill Evans]

The amazing thing was that then he said that he was more influenced by the Miles Davis Group(!).

Who was responsible for the sound of the Miles Davis group if not Bill Evans? Miles even said that Bill was his favorite pianist, and he specially hired him to change the sound of the group. Even Herbie Hancock admitted (probably under threat of waterboarding?)that "that guy" (as the Bradster called him), Bill Evans had a strong influence on him.

This goes under the heading of re-writing jazz history by the darlings of DOWNBEAST; Pat Metheney, the Bradster, Ornette, etc... because they're obviously the greatest living jazz musicians (my DownBeast tells me so) and Bill Evans was just some washed up cocktail pianist, who should have stuck to playing piano bars...

[Brad Mehldau on Bill Evans]

Fast forward nine minutes into this to hear the Bradster's opinion of Bill Evans.<iframe width="474" height="54" frameborder="0" src="http://www.studio360.org/widgets/ondemand_player/#file=%2Faudio%2Fxspf%2F106894%2F;containerClass=studio360"></iframe>

[Kenny Burrell]

Did I mention that KB also sang like Billy E in the 50s?

Not sure I get the "in the 50's" part, but yeah, KB sang, and sings. Got "Weaver Of Dreams"? Very solid, to my ears.

Maybe it wasn't in the 50s when he made that largely vocal LP(early 60s?), but he sang in a straight, Billy E. style back then, and his more recent vocal things are much looser, with some "beboppin' and scattin'"like the one I posted.

[Kenny Burrell]

Maybe we can turn this in another direction?

What guitarists show Burrell's influence? Which contain elements of his style and approach?

I followed Mark Whitfield in his Verve heyday. I see some similarities. Of course, many regarded him as too conservative and retro.

Let me be clear (for what it's worth) that I'm also a big fan of more modern guitar like Frisell, Metheny, and Scofield. Bear in mind, they are no longer young musicians--haven't been for quite awhile.

Metheny is practically all KB when he plays off of min7th chords on all his jazz/latin tunes.

I'm sure the other two would admit a serious KB influence, but I'm not a fan of either of them, so I couldn't point out any specifics.

KB strongly influenced rockers of the 60s like Hendrix, Coryell and Jorma Koukenen.

Hendrix says to the organist on one of his "mellow" Woodstock jams, "Now you make like Jimmy Smith, and I'll make like Kenny Burrell..." I remember reading an interview with Jorma in Rolling Stone where he said he saw KB in Sweden, and Kenny was doing somersaults(!) on the stand while he was playing at some club.

Any jazz guitarist of the 70s and beyond that has any blues influence in their playing most likely got it from KB. Did I mention that KB also sang like Billy E in the 50s? To his credit, he never did a girly-man version of "The Greatest Love", or any disco, but here he is evoking Betty Roche on "Take a Train"

[How many folks here have met Miles Davis?]

TM used to start pounding his foot on the floor when he got into his solos, so loud, it would drown out the drummer. That was my cue to leave.

[Kenny Burrell]

Kenny da man!!!

My fave Kenny was when he played his D'Angelico back in the 60s and 70s on LPs like "Night Song". I don't know why he had to go back to those coarse, un-pedigreed Gibsons.

There's no other guitarist who can touch him on ballads, and his sense of groove on medium tempoes is perfection.

I recently read some self-appointed 'genius' pontificate that Kenny sounds "white". That's how out of hand things have gotten with the younger generation of jazz "artists". How can you come out of the Detroit jazz scene of the 40s and 50s and sound white?

I've caught Kenny live a number of times, and he was always the best. He even owned a jazz club in NY which he named The Guitar, which featured the top players in NY of the late 60s and early 70s till it folded after a few years.

I think it would have been a miracle for Burrell to have emerged at that time with that tone (and lines), and not been from a Black music community.

Does the choice of guitar/amp change a great player like Burrell's sound that much, or was it rather a change in 'conception or approach instead, kinda like what jsngry was saying earlier in the thread? Even the difference in 'era's' for instance, as Mark Stryker refers to, might have an effect on the way we perceive tone and performance?

Kenny definitely changed from a more generic bop approach in his early LPs, to his own style by the time he led dates on Verve. The same way Phil Woods went from a Bird imitator to his own man on that Herbie Mann date in 1957. In fact you can hear both of them on KB's LP "A Generation Ago Today". Phil sounds like he's making fun of Kenny when they trade fours on "Stompin' At the Savoy".

It could have been the superior recording facilities at Verve compared to the funkier sound of his Blue Note LPs, but his sound on that Night Song LP is clearer, rounder, fuller and warmer than any guitarist I've ever heard. We can probably thank Kenny (and Johnny Smith) for making the D'Angelico New Yorker sell for $40,000, and the pickup he used, the DeArmond 1100 Super Chief, $1,000.

[Kevin Ayers, RIP]

Very sad to hear. He managed to combine humor with good songwriting. RIP Kevin.