The Rosetta Stone?

[.:.impossible]

The Circle of Fifths diagram has been incredibly valuable in my learning experience, and has sort of served as a rosetta stone for me when I am sight reading chord changes, or learning a tune.

Would you more experienced musicians agree that the circle of fifths is one of the major pieces of the puzzle? Any other pieces that you would hope I have on my music stand? Usually, I have the circle of fifths, the piece of music, and a metronome! Its lonely in the 'shed.

Thanks!

[JSngry]

Something to think about as time goes by...

[JSngry]

Also note that the tritone sub for any note/root lies directly across from it. E.G. - F#/Gb for C, C#/Dd for G, etc.

[JSngry]

Also note that triangles inside the circle map the movement of roots in major 3rds, squares in minor 3rds.

[JSngry]

Here's Trane's illustrated guide:

Be careful though, this is the kind of thing that killed him.

[JSngry]

http://www.heplaysjazz.btinternet.co.uk/giants.html

[.:.impossible]

Blowing my mind Jim. This really puts into perspective the size of my steps, in comparison. I've got work to do. Thank you! I'd like to come back to you on this some time down the road.

[JSngry]

Feel free.

[JSngry]

But never forget - the goal of learning this stuff is to eventually forget it.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Then I must be a great teacher, because I got all kinds of students who can't remember the circle of fifths.

Mike

[cannonball-addict]

I recently had an epiphany using triad pairs over dominant chords. So over any dominant seven chord or minor seven, you can play the root triad and the triad beginning on the note one whole step below the root. Arpeggiating these one on top of another is a cool sound.

e.g. D7 - play D, F#, A and C, E, G. In succession - C-E-G, D-F#-A, E-G-C, F#-A-D, G-C-E, A-D-F#.....there are a multitude of other patterns.

Edited November 29, 2004 by cannonball-addict

[Shrdlu]

Not to be niggling, but the C# and F# need to be doubly labled as Db and Gb, respectively, as those names are used a lot.

[Cornelius]

"D7 - play D, F#, A and C, E, G."

I would think that the C augmented triad, not the C major triad, would be the one to concentrate on here, since the G# gives an augmented 11th, which fits the chord much better (and is much more frequently voiced) than the perfect 11th that is usually felt as too dissonant to voice with the major third.

That reminds me that along with the circle of fifths, one might consider the following observation to be a useful summary:

Except for the b9 and +9 played for a dominant chord, it is rare that a "straight ahead" jazz chord has a minor 9th formed betwen any of its intervals (including internal intervals) in the strictly upward construction of the chord, even if the chord is not voiced in strict upward construction. This is especially true since locrian half-diminished is increasingly replaced by half-diminished with major 9th.

One could take it pretty much as a rule: Virtually any stacking of thirds or any intervals up through the 13th will make the chord notes/scale notes (not necessarily the voicing) of a jazz chord if no minor 9th is formed in the intervals (whether reckoned from the root or internally) in upward construction. And no construction that entails minor 9ths will work (except for b9 and +9 on a dominant). The sus with a perfect 4th might be an exception, except that the major 3rd is usually absent or at least somewhat supressed.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Cornelius

[Big Wheel]

"D7 - play D, F#, A and C, E, G."

I would think that the C augmented triad, not the C major triad, would be the one to concentrate on here, since the G# gives an augmented 11th, which fits the chord much better (and is much more frequently voiced) than the perfect 11th that is usually felt as too dissonant to voice with the major third.

The use of the words "arpeggiating" and "patterns" are enough to indicate that nobody is talking about sitting long and loud on the dreaded 4th.

As Mark Levine likes to say, there's a reason it's called jazz theory.

[Cornelius]

I understand that. I'm just suggesting that if you're going to arpeggiate a triad pair, why not just choose a triad pair that best fits the extensions of the chord? All other things being equal, it's just as easy to use G augmented as it is to use G major, and be spot on doing it. So I'm just pointing out an advantage of another option.

I'm not arguing against anyone playing or practicing anything they want to play, especially since, as your quote suggests, historically, actual jazz practice can't be accounted for by any one theoretic framework - ultimately, the greats just play whatever they want and make it sound good by, if nothing else, rhythmic momentum and the stand-alone logic and direction of their own melodic ideas.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Cornelius

[Big Wheel]

I understand that. I'm just suggesting that if you're going to arpeggiate a triad pair, why not just choose a triad pair that best fits the extensions of the chord?

Parallelism, for one. Two major triads together have an interesting edge and make for a more consistent pattern than a major triad followed by an augmented triad.

I guess I was reacting because as a pianist I went through the same thing with theory--a stage of adhering to the idea that you have to extract MAXIMUM COLOR out of every harmony just because you can. Real jazz contains so much chromaticism that it really isn't productive to focus on playing all the "right" extensions over dominant chords...especially once you start going outside, doing modal side-slipping, etc. etc. etc.

[Cornelius]

Point well taken about parallelism. Thanks.

I'm interested in both views: 1. The more practical approach you describe and 2. The exact-match extensions/scale approach. I think this "stereo" view can enrich one's understanding of the music. If nothing else, I don't think it hurts just to know that there are other options, especially that of collecting all the extensions into an easily remembered scale.

Edited December 2, 2004 by Cornelius

[.:.impossible]

I've recreated Coltrane's circle, as posted by Jim. It was so small...

[.:.impossible]

I just realized that I am missing the tri-tone sub. I wish I knew how to do flash. I would animate this circle by key. Thanks for diagram Jim!

Edited December 14, 2004 by .:.impossible