porcy62 Posted April 10, 2005 Report Posted April 10, 2005 Here you got the man in his words AAJ: How did the invention of stereo effect your approach to recording jazz? RVG: That was a problem for everyone and not just me. There was no artistic rush to get into stereo from the people I worked for. They had to get into because they had to get into it. As a matter of fact, for quite awhile Alfred and others too had to be making...this is pretty important that you understand this. They had to make two products from the same session. They had to make a mono release in order to have anyone buy it and they had to make a stereo release to make that available to people who were buying stereo. And then of course when the stereo LP came in there was this question of compatibility. Who wants to buy two albums of the same music? You had to make both available and that became very difficult so what happened was everything that was made in Hackensack was mono. Even towards the very end when we were recording two-track we weren't listening in stereo. We were recording in two-track and we were listening in mono because there was only one speaker in Hackensack in the control room and only one speaker in the studio. So how could you listen in stereo when you only have one speaker? And all the judgments, Alfred's judgments, as to mix and balance, and mine too and the musicians too and how they sounded in relationship to each other, and all that during the creative part of those recordings was done in mono. It couldn't be any other way. Towards the end we were running two-track sessions but no one had ever listened to them. So there was no particular attention or attempt at creating a stereo field at that time. the full interview http://www.allaboutjazz.com/iviews/vangelder.htm I know it's AAJ According to his word, the stereo mix was less accurate that then mono. One could think that if you pan your left and right channel of your stereo at 0, or if you switch your amp to mono, the result would be a mono version of the record. Did I miss something? Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted April 10, 2005 Report Posted April 10, 2005 This is what you miss: In the early days they ran two machines, one stereo and one mono. Both machines were fed by the same board. They decided on the various input levels based on the mono machine and the stereo deck was along for the ride. Later when mixing the stereo tapes, they had to deal with level adjustments made for the "mono mindset". Quote
porcy62 Posted April 11, 2005 Author Report Posted April 11, 2005 Thanks Chuck. But did RVG mix the stereo? I mean that if he equalized the mono master (and the stereo, if it was feed by the same board) during the recording, as RVG usually did, the only things to do is check out the level of both channel of your stereo master, and correct them if you have some big difference. If I would have to mix both mono and stereo on two different machine during a recording with a modern board, I would mix all the input in a two channel master and this two channel mixed togheter. If you are monitoring in mono, when you act on the single input level, the result on the stereo mix could be a little unbalance between channels' levels. Considering the experience and the skills of RVG and other recording guys at that time, I think they did not have to spent further time on stereo mix. I know that in case of three tracks master tape, like Columbia, they had to remix, but in RVG case? Quote
Parkertown Posted April 15, 2005 Report Posted April 15, 2005 Here's a cut 'n paste of a thread discussing this awhile back on the Steve Hoffman board. Very disconcerting... Sorry for the poor readability, quickie job...but I highlighted the pertinent parts. _______________________________________________________________ BRush Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LA Posts: 207 Blue Note Records - Stereo Recordings I have been thinking of picking up some of the Classic Records Mono Blue Note 1500 Series. The 1500 series covers the years 1952 to 1958. Some of the titles in this series appear to be Stereo fold downs. I know that John Coltrane's "BlueTrain" was released in Stereo. Does anyone know when Rudy Van Gelder began recording in Stereo, and when Blue Note began releasing titles in Stereo? BRush is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message BRush View Public Profile Send a private message to BRush Find More Posts by BRush Add BRush to Your Buddy List Old 01-03-2005, 07:05 PM #2 monkboughtlunch Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: dallas Posts: 330 I believe Rudy's first stereo recordings for Blue Note occured in 1957. I think Blue Note began issuing titles in stereo for LP in 58 or 59. monkboughtlunch is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message monkboughtlunch View Public Profile Send a private message to monkboughtlunch Find More Posts by monkboughtlunch Add monkboughtlunch to Your Buddy List Old 01-04-2005, 08:39 AM #3 poweragemk Fear and Loathing '37-'05 poweragemk's Avatar Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 5,173 None of the 1500 series were originally in stereo, right (though they may have been recorded that way)? I think it was the 4000/84000 series that began the Stereo/Mono dual issue LPs... I'm not sure if 'fold-down' is the right word for any 1500 series titles either. Were these recorded to three-track? __________________ Best, Michael þ poweragemk is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message poweragemk View Public Profile Send a private message to poweragemk Find More Posts by poweragemk Add poweragemk to Your Buddy List Old 01-04-2005, 08:40 AM #4 Steve Hoffman Daddy Tonmeister Steve Hoffman's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 18,797 No, two-track and then redubbed to mono. A hurtful way to do it if you ask me. Even Contemporary Records sprung for dedicated machines, one stereo and one mono for their backroom recording sessions. __________________ SH Steve Hoffman is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Steve Hoffman View Public Profile Visit Steve Hoffman's homepage! Find More Posts by Steve Hoffman Add Steve Hoffman to Your Buddy List Old 01-04-2005, 09:04 AM #5 RJL2424 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland/Melrose Park, IL USA Posts: 595 Quote: Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman No, two-track and then redubbed to mono. A hurtful way to do it if you ask me. Even Contemporary Records sprung for dedicated machines, one stereo and one mono for their backroom recording sessions. So, does that mean that the original (1959-issue) stereo versions of John Coltrane's BLUE TRAIN and Cannonball Adderley's SOMETHIN' ELSE are closer to the actual two-track master tape than the mono versions are? I asked this question, because later '70s "stereo" recuttings actually folded in the channels. (Booooo!) __________________ Randall RJL2424 is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message RJL2424 View Public Profile Send a private message to RJL2424 Find More Posts by RJL2424 Add RJL2424 to Your Buddy List Old 01-04-2005, 09:18 AM #6 poweragemk Fear and Loathing '37-'05 poweragemk's Avatar Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 5,173 Hmm...so that "in the room" sound that my original RVG 1500s have is due to (or despite) being redubbed? Were live titles like Sonny Rollins at the Blackhawk and Blakey at Birdland also folded down? I should have picked up that RVG-cut stereo Blue Train I saw recently... __________________ Best, Michael þ poweragemk is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message poweragemk View Public Profile Send a private message to poweragemk Find More Posts by poweragemk Add poweragemk to Your Buddy List Old 01-04-2005, 10:12 AM #7 BRush Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LA Posts: 207 I looked over my Lee Morgan and Hank Mobley Mosaic Box sets and from the information on those two sets, Rudy Van Gelder started recording in 2-Track Stereo around BN 1568, Hank Mobley "Hank Mobley". However BN 1560 "Hank" was still a 1-Track Mono Recording. My CD of Sonny Clark's "Dial S For Sonny" BN 1570, states on the back that it is available for the first time in Stereo. Thanks for the help BRush is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message BRush View Public Profile Send a private message to BRush Find More Posts by BRush Add BRush to Your Buddy List Old 01-04-2005, 06:57 PM #8 Kevin Bresnahan Formerly bresna Kevin Bresnahan's Avatar Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southern NH Posts: 238 I asked Blue Note's reissue producer, Michael Cuscuna about this and he replied: "Art Blakey - Orgy In Rhythm 3/7/57, was the first mono and stereo session. Sabu 4/28/57 was the second. All studio dates from that point on, up to and including Art Blakey - Moanin' 10/30/58, were recorded on both mono and stereo machines. After that all sessions were recorded in two track and folded down for mono." FYI, with this info in hand, the first session issued in mono that was actually made from a folded-down stereo master was BLP-4004, Art Blakey's "Holiday For Skins, Vol. 1". This also means that there is a mono master for Coltrane's "Blue Train". It was recorded 9/15/57, and if what I've read in the past is true, these mono masters will probably sound better. Supposedly Rudy Van Gelder only had a mono monitor set up during playback. Later, Kevin Kevin Bresnahan is online now Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Kevin Bresnahan View Public Profile Send a private message to Kevin Bresnahan Send email to Kevin Bresnahan Find More Posts by Kevin Bresnahan Add Kevin Bresnahan to Your Buddy List Old 01-04-2005, 07:17 PM #9 Steve Hoffman Daddy Tonmeister Steve Hoffman's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 18,797 First of all, one can clearly hear splices in songs where there is NO actual splice on the mono master tape. This means a redub! Whether he did it from a two-track source or a mono work part, a redub is a redub! __________________ SH Steve Hoffman is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Steve Hoffman View Public Profile Visit Steve Hoffman's homepage! Find More Posts by Steve Hoffman Add Steve Hoffman to Your Buddy List Old 01-05-2005, 12:14 PM #10 Kevin Bresnahan Formerly bresna Kevin Bresnahan's Avatar Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southern NH Posts: 238 Steve, I E-mailed Cuscuna to ask him if there was any reason why some of the "masters" now show splices (I assume you are referring to masters you've used) and he replied, "Some tapes exist as original masters. Some were transferred in the '70s and the originals thrown away! It varies and has no logic." That's too bad. Sounds like another "someone at the vault was an idiot" story. Kevin Kevin Bresnahan is online now Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Kevin Bresnahan View Public Profile Send a private message to Kevin Bresnahan Send email to Kevin Bresnahan Find More Posts by Kevin Bresnahan Add Kevin Bresnahan to Your Buddy List Old 01-05-2005, 06:16 PM #11 BRush Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LA Posts: 207 Classic Records claims to be using the Mono Masters for the 1500 Series. I noticed that there are some gaps in the series. Maybe the original Mono masters don't exist on certain titles. I'm excited to hear the new Sonny Clark titles on Classic Records, they've just released "Dial S for Sonny" & "Sonny's Crib". BRush is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message BRush View Public Profile Send a private message to BRush Find More Posts by BRush Add BRush to Your Buddy List Old 01-05-2005, 06:43 PM #12 MMM Forum All Star MMM's Avatar Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Lodi, New Jersey Posts: 3,296 Quote: Originally Posted by bresna Steve, I E-mailed Cuscuna to ask him if there was any reason why some of the "masters" now show splices (I assume you are referring to masters you've used) and he replied, "Some tapes exist as original masters. Some were transferred in the '70s and the originals thrown away! It varies and has no logic." That's too bad. Sounds like another "someone at the vault was an idiot" story. Kevin I think the redubs Steve is talking about are not copies made in the 70's, but Rudy redubbing them back in the day with extra Eq (IIRC probably boosted around 5khz) and I think compression. Correct me if I'm wrong, Steve! __________________ Martin Melucci MMM is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message MMM View Public Profile Send a private message to MMM Find More Posts by MMM Add MMM to Your Buddy List Old 01-05-2005, 07:05 PM #13 Steve Hoffman Daddy Tonmeister Steve Hoffman's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 18,797 Correct. __________________ SH Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted April 19, 2005 Report Posted April 19, 2005 So much mumbo jumbo. Some of this stuff is beyond belief. Quote
Jim Dye Posted April 19, 2005 Report Posted April 19, 2005 I used to read the Hoffman board now and again. Not anymore. I really got tired of all the sycophants. Uh-Oh! Thread Crap! Quote
Parkertown Posted April 19, 2005 Report Posted April 19, 2005 Ummm, I mean "useful" comments... Seems to me the monos might not be worth the extra bucks they're going for, just because of their current unavailability...at least not the ones after "Moanin'"... Fold-down = BAD Quote
porcy62 Posted April 19, 2005 Author Report Posted April 19, 2005 (edited) Ummm, I mean "useful" comments... Seems to me the monos might not be worth the extra bucks they're going for, just because of their current unavailability...at least not the ones after "Moanin'"... Fold-down = BAD It could be the subconscious question of my thread. Usually I look at SH forum, but I never posted there. I am a lazy guy, it would require me to listen to 45 times the same record on countless pressings and remasterings. Anyway I buy both stereo and mono RVG pressings, it depends on wich one I find and on the price. And I have some tech curiousity about it, I suspect it will not be fullfilled. Edited April 19, 2005 by porcy62 Quote
Parkertown Posted April 19, 2005 Report Posted April 19, 2005 Usually I look at SH forum, but I never posted there. I am a lazy guy, it would require me to listen to 45 times the same record on countless pressings and remasterings. No shit!!! Good one, Porcy...heh.... Quote
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