Copperopolis

[johnagrandy]

Just got Charlie Hunter's latest: "Copperopolis". Release date = Feb 6 ... that's Monday ! Well, I live real close to Fast Atmosphere so I'm probably one of the first non-insiders to give a listen.

Unfortunately, this is only an avg CH disc. Very solid, but not a lot of surprises here for a Hunter fan. Charlie's improvs are bluesy, funky, and quite sparse note-wise -- a territory where he excels, and his direction for quite a few years now.

Actually, CH albums might be on a downwards slope : "Right Here Now" was way better than "Friends Seen And Unseen" -- which in turn probably has the edge on "Copperopolis" ... not sure on that yet, I need a few more listens.

For me CH is everyday while-you're-living-your-life music so I'm sure this one will grow on me.

However, I had crackpipe-in-the-sky hopes when I heard that the band rocks-out on this date. But that really only happens on "Cueball Boppin'" and "The Pursuit Package" (a bizarre tune which abruptly cuts-off at 2:14 ... not the instruments, the track ! ... huh???? [liner notes or other clues do not exist ... could it be a studio mistake?] ). ("Drop The Rock" is dark dank downer of a tune with some underground undertones near the end.)

By far the best track is Monk's "Think Of One", re-done Hunter-style, of course. This is the unadulterated Hunter genius I remember from live gigs over a decade ago. Any work of genius from any genre gets re-worked into a new work of genius in a new genre. What a trip!

One mistake the band made on this date is that John Ellis messes around with a Melodica and a Wurlitzer on a couple tracks and, for my ears, what's the point? Hunter's got such a massive bag of sound tricks ... why add more from someone who doesn't specialize in that area? It's not poorly executed, it's just that people expect quite a bit from a CH CD these days ... and although these e-struments don't sound bad they also don't add anything special ... it's like Paul Schaeffer fucking around on his break or something (ok, not quite that bad).

But the big solution to the core underlying problem with this recording is unfortunately even more far-reaching than its immediately evident problems: in a nutshell, it's time for John Ellis to move on.

John Ellis either needs to start devoting most of his time to leading his own band (and all that that implies), or maybe start playing with some of the older serious jazz heavyweights. He's got to pursue his own improvisational style in the context of his own music, or head in another direction and learn some tough lessons in contexts more improvisationally advanced than what he's been playing in.

This guy is the most talented 20-something saxophonist on the planet and fitting himself into CH's units and various other funky or alternate contexts doesn't seem to be catalyzing his talent to explode the way it should. I'm sure he wouldn't agree with me, and who the fuck am I anyway?, but that's the way I see it.

As for Hunter, I recommend heading off into the land of experimental instrumentation -- how about trombone, trumpet, vibes, and drums ?

Edited February 5, 2006 by johnagrandy

[johnagrandy]

Is anyone aware that Hunter and the rest of Garage A Trois except for Skerik put up on Amazon a list of stuff ya just gotta listen to. Lots of organ.

The New Orleans-based progressive-jazz/funk combo Garage a Trois formed in 1999 as a trio that included guitarist Charlie Hunter, drummer Stanton Moore, and saxophonist Skerik. Vibraphonist/percussionist Mike Dillon came on board three years later. Their second release, 'Bande Originale du Film de Outre Mer', is the soundtrack to the film by Klaus Tontine. Here is some of their favorite music.

Stanton Moore's List of Music You Should Hear

Some things I've listened to over the years and keep returning to...

'John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman'

Quite possibly one of the most lush and romantic records of all time.

'Sketches of Spain', Miles Davis

Beautiful.

'Live at Birdland', John Coltrane

This was the first record that turned me on to how powerful and energetic jazz can be.

'Live At Last', Black Sabbath

Raw and badass.

'Roberta Flack & Donny Hathaway'

About as soulful as it gets.

'Wrecking Ball', Emmylou Harris

Emmy is an inspiration to anyone who wants to have longevity in what they do.

Everything by the Meters.

[Among their albums available at Amazon are 'Funkify Your Life: Anthology' and 'Look-Ka Py Py'.]

I'm still amazed to meet people who haven't checked out the Meters. I want to make a shirt that says "LISTEN TO THE METERS." Like the Skynyrd, Marley, and Sabbath ones.

Been checking out lately...

'Deliverance', Corrosion of Conformity

When I was learning tunes to tour with these guys I really got into this record. If you're a fan of any heavy stuff at all you should check out this record.

The John Bonham isolated drum tracks.

[The isolated drum tracks from Led Zeppelin's 'In Through the Out Door', which have been floating around the Internet for a number of years.]

You may have heard about these. I put them on and barrel over with laughter, they sound so amazing.

Mike Dillon's List of Music You Should Hear

'Bags Meets Wes', Milt Jackson and Wes Montgomery

My favorite jazz vibraphone record ever!!!! Philly Joe Jones, Sam Jones, and Wynton Kelly are funkier than a dog dipped in armadillo wax. The conversation between Bags and Wes is astounding.

'Cal Tjader's Latin Concert'

My favorite early Cal record is this one. Willie Bobo kills on this. You can hear the chemistry between Mongo and Cal as well.

'Primo', Cal Tjader and Charlie Palmieri

Mindblowing!!! Listen to vibraphone and Wurlitzer magic.

'Five Leaves Left', Nick Drake

"The River Man" rules. I am a sucker for string arrangements.

The Nels Cline Singers

[Among their albums available at Amazon are 'The Giant Pin' and 'Instrumentals'.]

I do not remember the title of this record, but it is in my iTunes and I love napping to this one. The dreams shift from opiated wonder to crushing terror shakes like when aliens abduct you in your sleep.

'Let's Kiss', Brave Combo

The freaks from Denton, Texas, continue to reinvent the polka and throw the best cracker hoedown on the planet. Oh yeah, they won their second Grammy with this one.

'Clouds Taste Metallic', the Flaming Lips

I still listen to this CD at least once a week. I took a lot of drugs to 'Transmissions from the Satellite Heart' and then cleaned up to 'The Soft Bulletin'.

'Banned in DC: Bad Brains Greatest Riffs', Bad Brains

'Nuff said.

'Bob Wills - Greatest Hits'

Bow down to the original freak.

'Out to Lunch', Eric Dolphy

My favorite Dolphy disc. Bobby Hutcherson is amazing on this CD.

Any and all Thelonious Monk!!!!!!!!

[Among his albums available on Amazon are 'Monk's Dream' and 'Brilliant Corners'.

Charlie Hunter's List of Music You Should Hear

'Olivier Messiaen: Complete Organ Works, Vol. 1', 'Olivier Messiaen: Complete Organ Works, Vol. 2', 'Olivier Messiaen: Complete Organ Works, Vol. 3', 'Olivier Messiaen: Complete Organ Works, Vol. 4', 'Olivier Messiaen: Complete Organ Works, Vol. 5', and 'Messiaen: Complete Organ Works', Rudolf Innig

'American Hips', Jim Campilongo

'Counterclockwise', Bobby Previte

'One Foot in the Swamp', John Ellis

'At the Deer Head Inn', Keith Jarrett

'Heaven', Ron Miles

'Belle Epoque', Mose Se 'Fan Fan'

'Bridge', Sonny Rollins

'Go', Dexter Gordon

More Garage

'Emphasizer', Garage a Trois

'All Kooked Out!', Stanton Moore & Charlie Hunter

'Jazz for Jerks', Ten Hands

'Flyin' the Koop', Stanton Moore

'Bing, Bing, Bing!', Charlie Hunter

'Friends Seen and Unseen', Charlie Hunter

[Guest akanalog]

those lists are for young hippies who dont know anything.

you are enigmatic, man...

you listen to good stuff like w. shaw and then hippie pandering post modern crap like skerik and charlie hunter.....

no offense. just my opinion on this stuff.

[.:.impossible]

I don't see anything wrong with those lists.

Roberta Flack & Donny Hathaway for young hippies?

Bad Brains for young hippies?

COC for young hippies?

Messiaen for young hippies?

You always come across as if your taste in music/life is far superior to everyone, including many people on this board. Just an observation, and nothing personal against you. I just wonder where that comes from?

[Sundog]

those lists are for young hippies who dont know anything.

you are enigmatic, man...

you listen to good stuff like w. shaw and then hippie pandering post modern crap like skerik and charlie hunter.....

no offense. just my opinion on this stuff.

I like some of that "hippie pandering post modern crap" Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[Guest akanalog]

You always come across as if your taste in music/life is far superior to everyone, including many people on this board. Just an observation, and nothing personal against you. I just wonder where that comes from?

because it is all a scam man. they juse want your money. and especially the kids money.

[md655321]

Who is they?

And is the best way to get our money to tell us to buy Thelonious Monk records?

[Guest akanalog]

Who is they?

And is the best way to get our money to tell us to buy Thelonious Monk records?

well it makes the kids think they are hipper.

it gives a little more cache to the whole thing.

[Guest akanalog]

who is they? they is charlie hunter and dj logic and john scofield and their merry band of goateed friends who have decided to take the paths of least resistance and most money.

and i mean come on please-

if you made a list of your favorite jazz and otherwise music i don't think it would look anything like that, would it? and what are the chances it would look like this if it were done by a professional musician who has probably heard a ton more stuff than you or i have (like mr. hunter)

[kh1958]

I didn't like Charlie Hunter too much when he first started recording, but I'm come to appreciate his playing, and he sounds like he has advanced quite a bit over the years. His Groundtruther recording with Bobby Previte and Greg Osby is the recent one that I really like.

As for Sherik, if that is the fellow I'm thinking of (a saxophonist who employs many electronic effects?), I was fortunate to see Bobby Previte at the 55 Bar a year or so ago, with Jamie Saft on keyboards, Sherik on electric saxophone, and a Russian guitarist whose name escapes me, and that was some wild, stunning music and completely blew me away.

[.:.impossible]

Isn't that the point though? To "hip" people to good music?

[Guest akanalog]

Isn't that the point though? To "hip" people to good music?

that is the point...but the lists also reek of being targeted towards the kids. the kids who will spend money and make them rich. IMO.

[.:.impossible]

What, this part?

More Garage

'Emphasizer', Garage a Trois

'All Kooked Out!', Stanton Moore & Charlie Hunter

'Jazz for Jerks', Ten Hands

'Flyin' the Koop', Stanton Moore

'Bing, Bing, Bing!', Charlie Hunter

'Friends Seen and Unseen', Charlie Hunter

Are you just against marketing?

[Jim Alfredson]

who is they? they is charlie hunter and dj logic and john scofield and their merry band of goateed friends who have decided to take the paths of least resistance and most money.

The path of least resistance and most money in the music biz involves developing and learning an instrument that had never existed before?

Uh...

[md655321]

So they pretend to like Monk because it makes them cool?

I will agree that there are people that get there one Dolphy cd and their two or three Miles cds just to tell their friends they listen to them. But isnt it possible that they actually like the stuff?

Do you actually try to look for ways to be jaded? Being skeptical of everything can be just as dangerous as being accepting of everything.

I love Phish and Monk. Is that only because it makes me look cool?

If I made a list of favorite recordings, Im pretty sure I would have Out to Lunch

[Guest akanalog]

i don't even think they made the lists.

some jerk at ropeadope or whatever label they are on probably made the lists.

[Guest akanalog]

The path of least resistance and most money in the music biz involves developing and learning an instrument that had never existed before?

Uh...

you gotta have a gimmick, no?

[Jim Alfredson]

That's a heck of a lot of time to spend developing a "gimmick". It's not exactly an instrument you could learn in a few days or months or even years even if you were already a guitarist.

I'm not buying it. I think Hunter is brilliant.

[Sundog]

i don't even think they made the lists.

some jerk at ropeadope or whatever label they are on probably made the lists.

Boy, you've really created quite the scenario....

[Guest akanalog]

i'm not saying hunter doesn't have talent-it is the ends to which he is using this talent.

[md655321]

And what are those 'ends'?

What would an acceptable list look like to you?

[Guest akanalog]

i think roland kirk got flack back when he was around for the way he used his special musical gift (at least towards the end). i wasn't there but i think that was the case. hunter sort of reminds me of kirk's case without the context to make it more legit (as far as the political and cultural environments surrounding kirk's career)....

why don't the kids give vernon reid some love?

[johnagrandy]

akanalog, You might very well be right that there is a problem, because as someone who's been to a lot of these shows , it's obvious to me that all that most members of these audiences want from jazz history is some added-in authenticity to the soothing alternative sounds and vibes being deployed to make their lives more comfortable and their evenings more enjoyable ... and a lot of this music is created so that its maximum effect occurs once various substances have worked their magic -- so take that into consideration as well.

(Don't extrapolate my jazz history statement onto the musicians themselves, 'cause that's a whole different conversation.)

Now, if the avg jam band fan went to Sco, Goldings, Holland, DeJohnnette or Mingus Big Band or McCoy Tyner, they'd have to somehow prepare their minds for some serious shit ... and if they even got it, they might drive home pretty fucking depressed 'cause it would have become obvious to them that the world is way way more serious than they were taking it to be.

But one thing it (very unfortunately) took me 20 years to learn is the following: the people who can have the fun should have the fun. Now if it's jocks on the beach drinking beer and chasing p, well that ain't my kind of fun. But these jam band crowds are basically my kind of people in the relative (very important word) sense of how they view our world.

So if Hunter or whomever wants to cater to this hippie-trippie , no-reason-to-think-about-tomorrow , daddy's-money-in-my-wallet (or "I don't give a fuck about money") crowd, then why not ? What's the problem ? It's not "cashing in", I mean c'mon, these bands don't get rich like The Dead did. They probably do better than most jazzmen do, but being your own businessman and following the money is intrinsic to existing in this country. We don't got no social services or government training programs.

What I think is cool is that some of these kids (and, actually, they're really not kids , that's a total misconception -- you're just as likely to find 30-somethings as 20-somethings) do get into serious jazz via this route, that might be how a modern fan base gets rebuilt that actually has some understanding of jazz history.

'Cause Nirvana doesn't goes on forever for anyone , and sooner or later all serious people who think and feel are gonna understand what Miles was really speaking of in 'Round Midnight -- and that's when party music don't do shit for you.

Also: How exactly is the serious side of jazz building the future of the music for anyone except themselves and the cognoscenti? Should erudite and modern serious jazz even be used in the same sentence? Monied well-dressed finely-appointed enclaves of elitist sound derived from but having little or no direct connection to the experiences that engendered them don't necessarily have anything to do with the real world either.

As for Sco: I think he eventually booked too many hours in that scene and got sick of it, but he was having a blast while he was doing it. Why should the young guys get to have all the fun ?

As for Hunter on 8-string: Since the beginnings of the modern jazz rhythm section , there's always been this problem with the bass and the piano's left hand not synnergizing and doing what the band or soloist needs/wants them to be doing. And every great jazz leader has expended big energy trying to find the right jazz/piano combination , or trying to get them to play together to get the sound he wants, or re-educating them , or whatever.

Hunter didn't invent a gimmick. He solved a problem: his musical problem: he wanted this base line with these chords and it was better faster cheaper less headaches and more fun if he just figured out how to do the whole fucking thing himself , so he did. Someone else started calling it a gimmick. I saw Hunter many times when he was just figuring this stuff out and the attraction to the audience was the groove, the unique sounds, the brilliant reworkings of "standards" from many many genres of music into a jazz-based forms. After a few minutes into the 1st # you're not even thinking about 8-string or "Where's the bassist?" or whatever. Back then most non-musicians didn't even notice.

Edited February 6, 2006 by johnagrandy

[Jim Alfredson]

So Charlie Hunter isn't serious jazz?

[johnagrandy]

So Charlie Hunter isn't serious jazz?

I think he qualifies as a serious jazz musican because of his ability to communicate at the most serious emotional level in a manner that includes consistent innovation in composition, improvisational ideas, rhythms, plus masterminding high-level group communication and synergy. He has serious knowledge of the history of jazz recordings and incorporates it into his playing.

Others say he's not a serious jazz musician, because of one or more of the following:

1. he plays other genres, many associated with partying and party drugs

2. he plays 8string guitar, which possibly implies:

(a) he invented a gimmick instrument to make $

(b) no one could ever get any good at jazz guitar if they have to deal with playing the bass line too

3. his jazz improv chops are not at the level of Frisell, Sco, Stern, Metheny, etc.

4. he almost never plays with recognized members of the serious jazz establishment

I say CH did his own thing, his own way, with his own people, and it worked, and he deserves all the success and adulation he's getting -- 'cause how many cats could pull that off? I mean when the guy was 15, how many people would have laid $, even at big overlays, on him being where he is now?

However, I'd also say that currently he's involved in too many projects, playing too many genres, touring too much, trying to make too many recordings per year, not innovating his core style anywhere near the rate he was in his 20s ... the guy might go full tilt if he keeps it up at this rate. Maybe he needs to do a Rollins thing on a bridge or something.

The most important point though is the following: I think CH and his crowd (many whose parents were/are jazz musicians) looked at serious jazz when they were teenagers and said to themselves "These guys are not involved in a group experience. They might as well be encased in plexiglass cubes onstage. I don't want to do that."

So, in my opinion, the reason why a lot of players well on their way to serious jazz chops in the 80s and 90s decided to go a different direction and today are doing the jam band scene (or whatever you want to call it -- my little invention is "jazz plus"), is that they wanted to be viscerally involved with the audience and have fun and they didn't see serious jazz going in that direction.

Edited February 6, 2006 by johnagrandy