Joe Maneri - Anybody a fan?

[The Mule]

I've been aware of Maneri, but had never heard him until I saw AMERICAN SPLENDOR. There's this wild tune under the opening credits and I couldn't place it.

Did a little digging and learned it was "Paniots Nine" by Joe Maneri from a 1963 demo which was finally issued a few years back.

Now, of course, I'm scrambling around to get my hands on the cd which seems to be on the verge of going OOP.

Just based on "Paniots Nine" I've become a fan. Any suggestions on what I should listen to next?

[Hans Blix]

I think the obvious selection would be "Dahabenzapple" though I've come to thoroughly enjoy "The Trio Concerts" off Leo. . .a sumptuous recording.

And actually my favorite ECM is "Three Men Walking," another fine selction.

HB

[Man with the Golden Arm]

mule,

very much looking forward to this movie. i had been searching for what might be on the soundtrack and came up short as no track lists are available.

i did find this blurb for maneri's avant realease on john zorn's avant label:

JOE MANERI - Paniots Nine (Avant 067; Japan) An exciting first release of Joe's legendary 1963 quartet recordings ! In the past 10 years, more and more people have become aware of the music of Joe Maneri. Born in Brooklyn in 1927, Joe has been a professional musician since 1941. A veteran of countless bands, his experience as a musician-for-hire gave him a unique insight into a wide variety of music, from jazz and classical, to Klezmer and Greek wedding music. Integrating these musics into a personal vision as early as the mid 50's, Maneri is a true American original, anticipating the exciting new music of the AACM, and the more recent developments of Dave Douglas, Don Byron (who studied with Joe at the New England Conservatory), Paradox Trio and countless others. These are the legendary lost tapes of Joe's ill-fated 1963 quartet demo; the original recordings both musicians and critics have been talking about for years. You've got to hear it to believe it. Joe Maneri (ts, cl), Don Burns (p), John Beal (bs), Pete Dolger (ds), Greg Silverman (p) CD $18.00 STOCK + Liner Notes by Pekar!

give Downtown Music Gallery a ring.

Edited August 20, 2003 by Man with the Golden Arm

[John L]

I never really connected with Maneri on the records I've heard. But I heard him live not long ago and was genuinely moved. He is has a truly original approach to the horn.

[WD45]

Here is another vote for Three Men Walking. ECM re-released it not long ago, so it should be readily available.

Some of the sides with Papa Joe vocalizing in a nonsense language are definitely unique. I expected to hate them, but didn't.

[Joe Christmas]

Joe Maneri's music in a mainstream American movie? Get out!! That's great news for many reasons but mostly because I'm such a big fan.

I haven't heard the Paniots Nine stuff so I couldn't draw a recommendation from there. The Leo dates (Get Ready... and Let the Horse Go) are the most abrasive to my ears but not at all unenjoyable. Joe's music never becomes a screamfest anyway. I'd have to agree with my man Hans on the Dahabenzapple rec, a beautiful, beautiful concert where Joe and Mat are like a single musician throughout. REALLY cool to hear a young guy like Randy Peterson, an absolutely exceptional drummer, keeping time and pulse with Cecil McBee. I love that record.

The ECM records are cool too, highly experimental but somewhat brooding. There's more life in some than others, but the constant on any Maneri record is his technique. The man wrote the book (literally) on the use of microtones in contemporary music and his methods are always present in his music. The attention he gives to just a handful of notes are detectably complex.

Another fantastic Maneri disc is the AUM Fidelity one mentioned above, Going to Church. Joe (and Mat) are well worth a little inspection.

[The Mule]

Thanks for all the quick replies. Very helpful. I'm happy to report that Tower has shipped me a copy of PANIOTS NINE and I'll be on the hunt for the others very soon. One thing I love about jazz is that there's always something new to explore.

For more info on the music in AMERICAN SPLENDOR see this link: AMERICAN SPLENDOR. There are a few selections you can listen to and Harvey Pekar introduces them!

Thanks again everyone...

[bluenoter]

Just want to second the observation that it's a moving, wondrous, joyous, not-to-be-missed experience to hear Papa Joe live. (Randy Peterson and especially Mat Maneri are also very enjoyable live.) And I went in with virtually no exposure to anything remotely similar.

I followed up with Going to Church, but I'll be getting one of the older albums next.

[Joe Christmas]

Mule, thanks for that link! Very cool. Listening to "Paniots Nine" right now. I'll be ordering it myself, shortly.

Word of warning based on the recommendations you have received: "Paniots Nine" is nothing like what he's been doing the last 20 years. There are no "changes" in his tunes, for example. Nor conventional scales. His playing is primarily focused on the free aesthetic and he gets there (most of the time) by way of microtones, from the traditional Eastern 72-tone scale all the way to some of his own that he's created in the triple digits. Complex shit, like I said. But good shit.

[The Mule]

Thanks for the warning. I had expected his music would evolve and develop from what he recorded in 1963, but what better place to start than at the beginning? It'll be fun to listen to the music progressing as I collect. Can't wait to get my hands on more.

Edited August 20, 2003 by The Mule

[Man with the Golden Arm]

darn friggin macintosh won't allow me to sample that site you tossed up there Mule. just pops me right into iTunes with nothin' but a text icon remaining from the download.

the DMG blurb has me intrigued. describe that piece will ya. the movie doesn't come my way till late september.

[Guest Chaney]

darn friggin macintosh won't allow me to sample that site you tossed up there Mule. ...

You might want to have a listen (or try to have a listen) to the sound samples available at SAM GOODY. (Why the heck is this one so expensive?)

Also recommended:

Joe Maneri Quartet: Coming Down the Mountain

hat HUT Records hatOLOGY 501

October 28, 1993

Ruach Israel

Needham, MA

Swing High [6:20]

Swing Higher [11:04]

Coming Down the Mountain [11:23]

Joe's Alto [1:49]

Say It All [15:07]

To End or Not to End? [8:29]

[All compositions, Joe Maneri]

Joe Maneri (reeds; piano)

Mat Manerri (violin)

Ed Schuller (bass)

Randy Peterson (drums) -- LOVE this guy's playing!

From the liner notes penned by Ben Ratliff:

Coming Down The Mountain, recorded in a Boston-area synagogue, is hard-core romanticism. Listen to the title track, when Mat's violin gradually but forcefully drifts up in the mix; he's one of the great yearners of jazz. The Maneris want to shake up your heart, and their tempos - especially on Swing High and To End Or Not To End - are slower than most bands can sustain. If you play a 45 RPM doo-wop single on 33 1/3, and if you wonder if real singers can achieve that kind in incredible arcing sensuality, you'll be getting a reasonable analagous experience.

[The Mule]

Not sure I can describe it! I've never been very good at using words to describe music.

First try this link to the TOWER site and maybe you can play a short clip of the tune.

AMG describes the sound of the session:

"This album is revelatory, capturing the use of weirdo time signatures like 9/8 in soloing and improvising, laced through with strange intervals and mode changes, and full of joy and drama. The boundaries blur between Eastern European wedding music and free jazz. The whirling clarinets and bowed bass played against a drummer who refused the traditional (in jazz, anyway) concept of rhythm in favor of counterrhythm atop the entire band, with the piano trailing in a rush."

In AMERICAN SPLENDOR it comes in at this perfect moment in the very beginning and plays under the opening credits. At first I thought it was some Eric Dolphy tune I had never heard before, but quickly realized that wasn't right. I think the AMG description is pretty good. The whole tune had this manic whirling dervish sort of feeling. It is unlike anything I have ever heard. Reminded me a bit of Zorn's Masada stuff...

[Joe Christmas]

I just remembered (and was able to locate) this classic review of COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAIN by Kevin Bresnahan from the old Speakeasy. It made me laugh the first time and made me laugh here again. Very honest though (and brave) considering Kevin's general taste in music.

_______________________________

Long post warning!!!!!!!!

As required by Jazz Corner law... or the law as interpreted by Jimmy Cantiello... here is the required review of Joe Maneri's "Coming Down The Mountain". As much as I hate to do reviews, especially if I can't say a lot of good about the date, I am bound by my acceptance of this CD to do this review. I apologize in advance to Steve Reynolds, who I know holds this music in very high esteem and who already e-mailed me a long time ago to tell me what to expect. Quite frankly, he didn't expect me to like it and he was right.

Now before this thread breaks out into the expected "free Jazz sucks"... "No it doesn't"... "You're not a musician so you don't know pianissimo, I mean shit", I must warn readers that I haven't played in band in well over 18 years now and even when I did, it was John Philips Sousa rather than John Coltrane. I am not a musician and I wouldn't know a pianissimo if it hit me over the head. You can read this or ignore it. I'm just doing it for Jimmy. Remember Jimmy, you made me! :>)

Joe Maneri Quartet

Coming Down The Mountain

Joe Maneri - reeds & piano

Mat Maneri - violin

Ed Schuller - bass

Randy Peterson - drums

Recorded 10/28/93 at Ruach Israel in Needham, MA

1. Swing High - 6:20

Maneri enters by himself... very weakly... almost as if he's warming up. Mat, Schuller, and Peterson enter after this introduction (?) and add body to the sound. They start out sparse, with Mat doing some interesting off beat fills... well, that's not true. "Off beat" would imply the drummer is keeping time. Mat's fills are between the spaces of Joe's sax playing. There is a distinct lack of time keeping in the drumming so far.

Mat's up next for his "solo". I like this section. It has Mat and Schuller playing off each other nicely. It's like they're having a conversation. Peterson joins in and again doesn't add anything coherent. I do miss a "beat". Mat picks up the tempo and Schuller gets a little crazy with it. Peterson still sounds like he's trying to hit each part of his drum kit in succession.

Joe re-enters, still sounding tentative. I still can't get over that it sounds like they're warming up. Sloppy slurs by Joe here. It must be what he's trying to do. I do not like Peterson on this. It just ends... abruptly. Weird. No resolution at all. Makes me think my original premise, that they were simply warming up, was correct.

2. Swing Higher - 11:04

Solo intro by Schuller. He bends the strings a lot to get that crying sound. Not a bad thing. But, anybody who knows me, knows I'm not in love with this by any means! A bass solo (shudder).

Here comes Joe warming up again. I would have thought he was warmed up by the end of the first track. Still so tentative sounding. Haunting sounds... very quiet. Is Joe playing a clarinet or a sax?? Clarinet? This kind of noodling goes on for quite a while. Joe mews a note (and "mewing" is a good descriptive term to describe a lot of the sounds Joe gets) and Mat holds a note.

Mat is impressing me a lot more than Joe right now. Mat seems to play off Schuller a lot. Mat and Peterson duet for bit. Not bad, until Peterson remembers he's supposed to hit every piece of his drum kit or he's not "doing his job". Can't this guy ever *accidently* keep time?

It gets up before Joe comes in at his fastest tempo so far. Hey, they can play fast! :>) Why I'm supposed to be impressed by Joe's playing is beyond me at this point. He sounds so tentative. I guess if one wanted to put a positive spin on it, you could say he is "probing" or "searching" but to me it just sounds weak.

Schuller solos again. At least he's now at a much quicker tempo... now why the hell does Joe have to come back? If Schuller had simply soloed on out and ended the tune, there would have been a feeling of completeness. Instead Joe comes in, "mews" a few notes and they simply stop playing. It just leaves you hanging.

3. Coming Down the Mountain - 11:23

Very quiet intro... almost inaudible. Again I can't help but feel like I'm in a haunted house. Nicely done, if that's the effect they wanted. Schuller's really leaning on the bow. This is actually pretty good. As usual, it's Mat and Schuller that seem to play off each other. Joe comes in and keeps the mood.

I'm still not happy with Peterson at all. This guy is on my "to avoid list" right now.

Mat's playing some nice stuff right now. Joe sounds like he's trying to imitate a fire alarm. :>) Now Mat echoes him. Not bad. Get out of there Peterson! You're wrecking it! I must be missing something here... who's coming "down" and where's the "mountain"? No descending going on here. Pretty flat actually. This stuff goes on forever. Not very cohesive. Very annoying drums.

A crescendo! Wow, they actually resolve something! Some more mewing with Peterson still trying for the world's record of playing the drums without ever keeping time. And then... it... ends. No feeling of completeness. No tying up loose ends. They simply stop playing.

4. Joe's Alto - 1:49

Joe solo... on alto I assume. :>) Very tentative as usual. He just doesn't come across to me as a very assured player. His tone is very unusual. I don't know if it's nasally or muffled. It sounds to me like a lot of sloppy slurs. As for the ending, see above. There is none. 4 tunes still no ending.

5. Say It All - 15:07

Joe's at the piano. Nice intro, but slower than molasses in January. Joe should stick to the reeds. He plinks and plunks without saying a whole lot. Mat and Schuller seem to be listening to each other but Joe seems to just play what he wants. Peterson starts out with the mallets on this one, but switches over to sticks rather quickly. I wish he had stuck to the mallets.

This is one of those pieces that isn't a piece. There's really no way to find a common thread among the 4 players. Wait a minute! They all follow tempo! Maybe that's it. When one speeds up, they all do.

I'm sorry, but this piano is terrible. Plunk. Plunk. Plink. I think he's playing with his forehead. I'd like to hit "skip" but it's only 4:18 and the thing is 15:07 long.

Ahh, here's Joe solo at the keys. A little stride here. Disjointed stride piano. Interesting. This I can dig. Unfortunately, the band joins back in. At this point I'm wondering if they'll finally resolve *one* tune. Mat holds a note for a painfully long time and then I swear Joe begins to sound like he's trying to play "Chopsticks"! :>)

Things settle down a bit after a an up tempo section... no wait, they don't. Whew. It gets really lively here. Now it's calmer. As I said above, at least they match tempo.

Nope. No ending. There were quite a few nice openings where they could have had a real ending but they chose their usual, "let's play and just stop all at once".

6. To End Or Not To End? - 8:29

Well, this is surprising. A slow tune. ;>} I think I'm falling asleep. Mat still impresses me as "the player" here. He's playing some nice fills behind his father's sax. Thankfully, Peterson hasn't shown up yet. I can see a little better where they're trying to go without Peterson. Joe still sounds tentative as usual.

With the title of this piece, I'm wondering what the end will be like. Incredibly weak-sounding sax playing by Joe near the end. He has to be trying to sound this weak! And, finally... an ending! Joe plays breathy, note-less sax keys to close it out.

Well, there you have it. No, I won't be keeping it, but it isn't all that bad. It's just not good enough to these ears to warrant frequent playback. This would never bump Hank Mobley off the CD player! :>)

And what's with these song titles? I can't help but think I'm being laughed at by these guys. You know what I mean. I get this mental picture of them listening to the playback and saying, "Man, is this slow. What do we call this?" Another band member says, "I know! How about 'Swing High'?" Someone else, "Ha ha. Yeah, that's rich! Let's call this next one that's even slower 'Swing Higher' ha ha ha!"

So, Mr. Nagel, you're next. E-mail me with your address and I'll send it off. I hope you can get your review out quicker than me.

And lastly, sorry for the delay. With the recent house move and the holidays, it's been tough. I actually wish I hadn't opened my mouth and asked for it.

Later,

Kevin

[.:.impossible]

That is a great review! Thanks for taking the time Kevin, and thanks for reposting that Al! Hilarious. I haven't heard the album, but the play-by-play was great.

[Guy Berger]

Listening to Joe for the first time, on In Full Cry. So far, I like!

Guy