Being British

[papsrus]

To an outsider, the article seems to capture quite nicely what it means to be British.

Britain Looks for Its Essence, and Finds Punch Lines

By SARAH LYALL

Published: January 26, 2008

LONDON — It was a lofty idea: formulate a British “statement of values” defining what it means to be British, much the way a document like the Declaration of Independence sets out the ideals that help explain what it means to be American.

To be seen at the races at Ascot is undeniably a British tradition. Summing up national values, though, appears debatable.

Because of the peculiarities of its long history, Britain has in modern times never felt the need for such a statement. But in an era of decentralized government and citizens who tend to define themselves less by their similarities than by differences of region, ethnicity or religion, the government felt that the time was ripe for one.

The proposal, part of a package of British-pride-bolstering measures announced by Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s new government over the summer, raised a host of tricky questions. What does it mean to be British? How do you express it in a country that believes self-promotion to be embarrassing? And how do you deal with a defining trait of the people you are trying to define: their habit of making fun of worthy government proposals?

Detractors spread the rumor that the government was looking not for a considered statement, but for a snappy, pithy “liberté, égalité, fraternité”-style slogan that it could plaster across government buildings in a kind of branding exercise.

Nor did it help when The Times of London cynically sponsored a British motto-writing contest for its readers.

The readers’ suggestions included “Dipso, Fatso, Bingo, Asbo, Tesco” (Asbo stands for “anti-social behavior order,” a law-enforcement tool, while Tesco is a ubiquitous supermarket chain); “Once Mighty Empire, Slightly Used”; “At Least We’re Not French”; and “We Apologize for the Inconvenience.” The winner, favored by 20.9 percent of the readers, was “No Motto Please, We’re British.”

Continued here

Edited January 26, 2008 by papsrus

[tonym]

Being British.......tough one that. If it's pride you're talking about --- well a modicum --- which is based purely on the nation's past achievements. Brits can be painted pretty poorly by the world's press as aggressive and obnoxious. Please, it's not all of us.

Personally, I think I'll feel a lot more pride once we have the right to a referendum on the significance of our monarchy.

As far as being English goes, and MG (being Welsh, I think) will probably back me up here, celebrating St. George's Day by hanging a George (OK, Norman ) Cross outside the house has you labelled as a racist or potential member of the BNP.

As Bill Bailey (a national gem, albeit a slightly grubby looking one) says: "what's it like being British? Well, we have Nectar Points, understatement, strong prevailing south westerly winds and 52% of our days are overcast"

See the rest here

[A Lark Ascending]

This is tied up with so many things - the way Britain has changed to become far more multi-cultural in the last 60 years; the increasing role and influence of the EC; some anxiety/fear/downright hostility over immigration (only a couple of years ago it was immigration from Africa, now Eastern Europe is the concern) and something of a jealousy with regard to the strong national identies that the Irish, Welsh and Scots seem to have developed (and a fear of the eventual disintegration of 'Britain', if Scotland and Wales decide to go for independence) .

As usual the government is trying to do the impossible - create an identikit British identity, based on what they'd like Britishness to be. The trouble is they're torn between wanting what they see as the age old traditional values and their desire to reflect the new multi-cultural Britain.

Whatever they come up with - and those of us who work in schools will be expected to inculcate this Britishness - I suspect it will be ignored by the bulk of the population - as in most countries there are multiple identities in Britain, identities that don't need spelling out or distilling into a simplified, standard-fit version.

I'm a Cornishmen (or so I claim!) who has hardly every lived in Cornwall, very proud of my Irish half and a keen supporter of European integration! Try and fit that into the standard model.

There is a good side though - English folk music has almost become cool again! Having seen the Scots and Irish whooping it up with their jigs and reels there seems to be a bit more sympathy for the English variety. Who knows, the words 'Morris Dancer' may soon not lead to instant guffaws!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Very nice Tony!

Actually, I was born in Edinburgh (Scotland) - my mother was there on a shopping trip; brought up in Brighton, Leeds & London (all England); and have lived a bit more than half my life in Wales.

So, I'm not. Anything. Really. All right, I still FEEL English.

I think the remarks in the NYT article do actually say quite a lot, taken together, about being English (not British). Bill Bailey's remarks about the weather - particularly the rainy season starting in the fourth century and not being over yet - are also true for the Scots & Welsh.

Not being conformist is nearer the answer than anything, I think. It's like the scene in "Life of Brian" where Brian is standing in the window addressing the multitudes: "You're all individuals!" "Yes, we're all individuals," the crowd yells back in unison. "I'm not," comes the answer from some bloke in the crowd. So HE's English. all the others are American

MG

[papsrus]

... It's like the scene in "Life of Brian" where Brian is standing in the window addressing the multitudes: "You're all individuals!" "Yes, we're all individuals," the crowd yells back in unison. "I'm not," comes the answer from some bloke in the crowd. So HE's English. all the others are American

MG

Priceless!

The article was kind of charming, I thought. My father has always been somewhat enamored of the English, having gone there as a young doctor right after the war. Many wonderful stories of stoicism and kindness. Stories about the butcher who wept when my mother brought him some goods from a care package sent from back home, the rationing and just an overall sense of rising above things to carry on. Although my parents don't travel anymore, they still maintain a membership at the Sloan Club in London. They loved staying there.

[patricia]

Very nice Tony!

Actually, I was born in Edinburgh (Scotland) - my mother was there on a shopping trip; brought up in Brighton, Leeds & London (all England); and have lived a bit more than half my life in Wales.

So, I'm not. Anything. Really. All right, I still FEEL English.

I think the remarks in the NYT article do actually say quite a lot, taken together, about being English (not British). Bill Bailey's remarks about the weather - particularly the rainy season starting in the fourth century and not being over yet - are also true for the Scots & Welsh.

Not being conformist is nearer the answer than anything, I think. It's like the scene in "Life of Brian" where Brian is standing in the window addressing the multitudes: "You're all individuals!" "Yes, we're all individuals," the crowd yells back in unison. "I'm not," comes the answer from some bloke in the crowd. So HE's English. all the others are American

MG

My late mother was born and raised in Edinburgh as well and remained Scottish all her life.

She lived in London for ten years, working for the engineers at the Post Office, when she met my father who was in the Canadian Army, stationed in London.

One thing that I will always remember is her continuing anger at the English for executing Mary Queen of Scots. She refused to call the present Queen "Elizabeth II", since she considered the line of succession to have been broken at Henry VIII, with a bastard taking a throne to which she was not entitled. That scoundral, Henry VIII.

But, mother considered herself Scottish, a British subject, decades after she had moved with my father to Canada.

Of course, Canada was tied to the British crown until Trudeau had our constitution sent to us, severing our ties to Britain visibly.

[A Lark Ascending]

My late mother was born and raised in Edinburgh as well and remained Scottish all her life.

She lived in London for ten years, working for the engineers at the Post Office, when she met my father who was in the Canadian Army, stationed in London.

One thing that I will always remember is her continuing anger at the English for executing Mary Queen of Scots. She refused to call the present Queen "Elizabeth II", since she considered the line of succession to have been broken at Henry VIII, with a bastard taking a throne to which she was not entitled. That scoundral, Henry VIII.

Lovely!

Actually, MQofS' son became James VI of Scotland and then James I of England - so the present Queen does have a direct descent from MQofS. Can't recall what Mary's claim was.

Now I will never forgive William Duke of Normandy for usurping the throne from Harold, Earl of Wessex in 1066. Or maybe it was Harald Hardrada who was the one badly done by. Or Edgar the Atheling!

Royal lineage makes even the US caususes sound simple!

[seeline]

Royal lineage makes even the US caususes sound simple!

Do you really think so, Bev? Because the primaries/caucuses/whatever have always had me completely baffled. It's incredibly hard to keep track of what goes on in even a handful of states - for me, at least - and different states have wildly divergent laws (customs, too).

For example: in primaries in Pennsylvania, you can only vote for one of your party's candidates. (i.e., if your voter reg. card says "Democrat," that's it for you.) But in Virginia, you don't register for a party affiliation, you literally just register to vote.... and so on, down the line.

Somehow the Electoral College is easier for me to understand, strange though that might seem.

[Christiern]

Wearing my school blazer, cap and tie, I went shopping on Winchester's High Street with my Aunt Flavie while on summer holiday in 1946. A sales lady showed her an alligator (or was it lizard?) pocketbook the price of which would have paid for the term I had just completed at Kent College (Canterbury). My aunt, who married an Englishman in the early 1930s, did not appear to be very interested, but when she was told that Princess Elizabeth had one just like it, she snapped it up without hesitation.

Aunt Flavie also had black borders around her stationery for a year after King George died. She was a total convert. My Uncle Christian (her brother) also married in England in the late 1920s, lived in Nettlebed (Henley) and had an office right off Hyde Park. He, too, became English to the core, but with a bit more sense. My mother's two other brothers lived their long lives in the Dominican Republic and California, respectively, and both assimilated, although the former never totally acculturated. My mother married men from different countries, but she remained Danish. Basically, I come from a family of chameleons, but I think there is something about England that makes people go all the way, as it were..

[sidewinder]

lived in Nettlebed (Henley)

Know it well. Film location for '101 Dalmations' and the TV comedy show 'Vicar of Dibley' outdoor locations.

I can relate to the blazer and tie bit (the caps had largely disappeared by the time I went through the school system). Very British, that. Standing for the National Anthem has largely also gone by the wayside now but I remember when it was pretty well mandatory in cinemas and public events.

Other things - an addiction to greasy fish 'n chips (mmmmm), chain-drinking cups of milky tea all day long, patient and orderly queuing (a WW2 ration fad that never seemed to go away) and an infuriating tendency to talk about how bad the weather is (a tendency that they share with the Canadians). Oh - and lousy plumbing.

Edited January 27, 2008 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

[Or maybe it was Harald Hardrada who was the one badly done by.

If he'd won at Stamford Bridge we'd be speaking Norwegian now and York would probably be the capital instead of London. Sounds good to me !

On the other hand, the Danish Viking Cnut (Canute) eventually became English King earlier that century and he was quite mild afterwards and by all accounts a pretty good ruler - the locals 'tamed' him it would seem.

Edited January 27, 2008 by sidewinder

[Head Man]

If he'd won at Stamford Bridge we'd be speaking Norwegian now and York would probably be the capital instead of London. Sounds good to me !

It's been a long time since anyone won at Stamford Bridge. Chelsea's defence is very good this season!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

if your voter reg. card says "Democrat," that's it for you.

Doo wah!!!??????

What's the point of having a vote if, in registering, you have to say which party you support? And what an intrusion into personal privacy!!!!

Some things about America simply astound me (I'm limp as a glove)

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

Royal lineage makes even the US caususes sound simple!

Do you really think so, Bev? Because the primaries/caucuses/whatever have always had me completely baffled. It's incredibly hard to keep track of what goes on in even a handful of states - for me, at least - and different states have wildly divergent laws (customs, too).

Sorry, seeline. I didn't make that clear...or spell caucuses right. I was alluding to the fact that I found the caucus system totally incomprehensible, but suggested royal succesion rules were even more so. There was a BBC radio broadcast from the New Hampshire primary which described people huddling in groups in some hall and then suddenly moving into different huddles. I remained non the wiser. There's something attractive about the whole improvised, backwoods side of this but I don't get it.

Does it have any connection with The Caucus Race in Alice in Wonderland (where everyone wins and everyone shall have prizes)?

[A Lark Ascending]

Other things - an addiction to greasy fish 'n chips (mmmmm), chain-drinking cups of milky tea all day long, patient and orderly queuing (a WW2 ration fad that never seemed to go away) and an infuriating tendency to talk about how bad the weather is (a tendency that they share with the Canadians). Oh - and lousy plumbing.

I thought bad teeth was meant to be a national characteristic.

[A Lark Ascending]

On the other hand, the Danish Viking Cnut (Canute) eventually became English King earlier that century and he was quite mild afterwards and by all accounts a pretty good ruler - the locals 'tamed' him it would seem.

I've always thought the Canute of legend (rather than the real one) made a wonderful symbol of the collective British character - hopelessly trying to beat off the inevitable tide of change, be it decimalisation, the Euro, asylum seekers etc.

Though we do seem to have embraced the Big Mac, the baseball cap and ordering coffee in a bewildering array of sizes and types with little resistance!

[sidewinder]

I thought bad teeth was meant to be a national characteristic.

Oh - and that too. Definitely !

[BillF]

In the current debate on British identity, people are increasingly being asked whether they would describe themselves as:

a) British

b) English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish

c) European

d) ethnic minority

My answers are:

a) Yes

b) Uncertain, as born in Wales of a Scottish father and Irish-descended mother and living most of my life in England

c) Yes

d) No

It would be interesting to know how other U.K. members shape up on these questions. MG would probably find question b) as difficult as I do.

[sidewinder]

In the current debate on British identity, people are increasingly being asked whether they would describe themselves as:

a) British

b) English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish

c) European

d) ethnic minority

I'll take a shot at it:

a) Yes - and Canadian

b) English (mainly English with some Scotish & Irish ancestry and somehow a wee smidgen of Welsh in the gene-pool that I know of)

c) Yes

d) No

Edited January 27, 2008 by sidewinder

[papsrus]

if your voter reg. card says "Democrat," that's it for you.

Doo wah!!!??????

What's the point of having a vote if, in registering, you have to say which party you support? And what an intrusion into personal privacy!!!!

Some things about America simply astound me (I'm limp as a glove)

MG

Just in the primaries MG, where party members are picking their party's presidential candidate. And certain states have "open" primaries, where anyone can vote either party. In Florida we have a closed primary. Dems vote for their preferred Dem candidate. Repubs for theirs. Independents don't get to vote. The idea is (I think) to prevent sabotage from the opposition, where they gang up and vote for your party's least viable candidate.

[A Lark Ascending]

In the current debate on British identity, people are increasingly being asked whether they would describe themselves as:

a) British

b) English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish

c) European

d) ethnic minority

It would be interesting to know how other U.K. members shape up on these questions. MG would probably find question b) as difficult as I do.

a) British - legally, yes. Though I've always felt uncomfortable with that term. Too many imperial associations.

b) English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish - Definitely English and very attached to the place; though my mum is Irish so I'm frequently drawn there (but would never claim to be Irish).

c) European - yes. The more links the better.

d) ethnic minority - no (unless being a Southerner trapped in the North Midlands counts me as one!).

Edited January 27, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[seeline]

if your voter reg. card says "Democrat," that's it for you.

Doo wah!!!??????

What's the point of having a vote if, in registering, you have to say which party you support? And what an intrusion into personal privacy!!!!

Some things about America simply astound me (I'm limp as a glove)

MG

Just in the primaries MG, where party members are picking their party's presidential candidate. And certain states have "open" primaries, where anyone can vote either party. In Florida we have a closed primary. Dems vote for their preferred Dem candidate. Repubs for theirs. Independents don't get to vote. The idea is (I think) to prevent sabotage from the opposition, where they gang up and vote for your party's least viable candidate.

All true, though that doesn't mean that it makes sense - never has to me!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

if your voter reg. card says "Democrat," that's it for you.

Doo wah!!!??????

What's the point of having a vote if, in registering, you have to say which party you support? And what an intrusion into personal privacy!!!!

Some things about America simply astound me (I'm limp as a glove)

MG

Just in the primaries MG, where party members are picking their party's presidential candidate. And certain states have "open" primaries, where anyone can vote either party. In Florida we have a closed primary. Dems vote for their preferred Dem candidate. Repubs for theirs. Independents don't get to vote. The idea is (I think) to prevent sabotage from the opposition, where they gang up and vote for your party's least viable candidate.

Yes, I know that, Paps. What I find incomprehensible is that, in closed primary states, a person is asked, when registering to vote, what side he/she is on, so it appears on the voting card. America is supposed to be, if not exactly the land of the free, then the land of "keep that effin' government nose out of my business". And yet... this.

MG

[papsrus]

Yes, I know that, Paps. What I find incomprehensible is that, in closed primary states, a person is asked, when registering to vote, what side he/she is on, so it appears on the voting card. America is supposed to be, if not exactly the land of the free, then the land of "keep that effin' government nose out of my business". And yet... this.

MG

Ah ... my apologies. Never quite sure how closely anyone outside the U.S. pays attention to all this madness. I think they just ship that party affiliation information directly off to robo-call centers and direct mail marketers. All very annoying.

[A Lark Ascending]

My understanding of the US electoral system is derived totally from 'The West Wing'!!!!!!!! (and you could do worse than get a copy of the old 'Yes, Prime Minister' series to understand the British!).

I'm looking forward to the forthcoming election of President Bartlett. Such a nice man!