Jimmie Noone with King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band

[Lazaro Vega]

Looking at the October 1923 session of Oliver's Creole Jazz Band and the booklet to the CD reissue "Off the Record" lists Buster Bailey as the clarinetist on "London Cafe Blues," "Camp Meeting Blues," and "New Orleans Stomp," with Noone listed as only playing on "Chattanooga Stomp."

The notes only say "The Columbia sessions are also marked by some questions concerning dates, rejected titles and the identity of clarinetists. Apparently recorded over two days...." And that's it.

Wondering if there's any other research to back this up, and, upon listening, if the Bailey identification holds up (if so, Gunther Schuller did a nice job of complimenting Bailey in Early Jazz).

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lazaro Vega

[Swinging Swede]

FWIW, Lord lists Noone on all of these four tracks and says that the personnel is taken from "King Oliver" by Laurie Wright. My Classics CD says "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone".

Chattanooga Stomp was recorded on the 15th and the other three tracks on the 16th, so it is possible that the clarinetist was switched for the latter session. Two more tracks were recorded at the earlier session: Junk Man Blues and a first attempt at London Cafe Blues, but they remain unissued and presumably lost.

[jeffcrom]

Yeah, there have been questions about the clarinets on several of the Creole Jazz Band dates over the years, especially this pair of dates. The definitive reference book on Oliver is "King" Oliver by Walter Allen, Brian Rust and Laurie Wright; they list "Chattanooga Stomp" and rejected/destroyed takes of "Junk Man Blues" and "London Cafe Blues" on Monday, October 15, 1923 and the master take of "London Cafe" and the other Columbia sides the next day. They have Noone as the the clarinetist on the 15th and Bailey the next day. Here's what they say:

"Previous listings have always shown all takes of [London Cafe Blues] to have been recorded on 15th October and discographers have been puzzled by the fact that two distinct clarinet sounds were heard on the two issued sides from the first date and by the claims, counter-claims and denials of those thought to have been concerned"

....

"Of the suggested clarinetists, Noone certainly recalled making one date with Oliver, and both denied and claimed his presence at different times on hearing these sides. (Johnny) Dodds has been suggested by many authorities, aural evidence suggests otherwise and in any case Dodds himself disclaimed his presence on being played the sides by Bill Russell. Suggestions of Bechet and Albert Nicholas may be discounted as they were not in Chicago at the time. Which leaves Buster Bailey. Bailey's name had not even been considered by most authorities until he himself told Arnold Klein of RCA (Europe) that he was on these titles and did at one time own tests of them. Comparison of the work on the second date with his work with Clarence Williams in New York a year or two later, would seem to substantiate his claim."

I don't know - I've always thought that a change of clarinetists between days of a two-day session was unlikely, although it's certainly possible. I just listened to these sides again, and I'm not sure there are really "two distinct clarinet sounds." To me it sounds like the clarinetist is standing closer to the recording horn on the 16th. To my ears, it sounds like it could be Jimmie Noone on all the sides, but folks smarter and more knowledgeable than me think it's Noone on "Chattanooga" and Bailey on the rest. I do know that anything musicians recall about recording dates made 20 years earlier should be taken with a grain of salt.

Just as I was about to post, I saw Swinging Swede's post. I've got the 1987 edition of the Allen/Rust/Wright book: I suspect an earlier edition listed Noone on all tracks.

[Lazaro Vega]

Thanks guys. Bailey did study with the same classical instructer as Noone, and some say he was influenced by him. Have not heard the Williams session with Bailey, so, will have do some comparison listening.....

[jazztrain]

Lazaro:

Here's some information from "All of Me - The Complete Discography of Louis Armstrong" by Jos Willems (Scarecrow Press, 2006):

>>

"The identity of the clarinetist on these Columbia sides has been a matter of considerable discussion and speculation for a long time. Hans-Georg Klauer and Iraki de Davrichewy have come to the conclusion after years of research that it is Jimmie Noone. This conclusion is followed here."

>>

Willems lists the same personnel on both the October 15 and 16 sessions in 1923 by King Oliver's Jazz Band: King Oliver ©, Louis Armstrong ©, Ed Atkins (tb), Jimmie Noone (cl), Lil Hardin (p), Johnny St. Cyr (bj), Baby Dodds (d).

I'll give the sides a closer listen when I have a chance.

Looking at the October 1923 session of Oliver's Creole Jazz Band and the booklet to the CD reissue "Off the Record" lists Buster Bailey as the clarinetist on "London Cafe Blues," "Camp Meeting Blues," and "New Orleans Stomp," with Noone listed as only playing on "Chattanooga Stomp."

The notes only say "The Columbia sessions are also marked by some questions concerning dates, rejected titles and the identity of clarinetists. Apparently recorded over two days...." And that's it.

Wondering if there's any other research to back this up, and, upon listening, if the Bailey identification holds up (if so, Gunther Schuller did a nice job of complimenting Bailey in Early Jazz).